[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I had the impression you were originally referring to really hard courses that went too far--places you didn't particularly care for. Given that I wasn't expecting you to answer Wolf Creek. Are there any really tough courses that you don't like?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Excusse me -- with Outlaw having opened 6-7 years as opposed to your iron clad restriction to list only Nicklaus courses that have opened for five years or less. C'mon Tom -- let's be a bit more elastic. Happy to forward you courses that are within the general time frame you mentioned.

One other thing -- Outlaw is a great testament to Team Nicklaus -- especially Jim Lipe -- for creating a very playable and ground oriented course. The funny thing is -- save for the par-4 10th green -- the course should be one that many GCAers would love. Few have played it and what's even more strange is that many members at DM don't like what the course offers. In my understanding that means Nicklaus can't win from losing no matter what he does.

Outlaw is indeed worth playing to demonstrate that Team Nicklaus doesn't have to create double-diamond or greater demand layouts for success.

Tom, you are walking a very generalistic line when you tag all Nicklaus courses as being super tough. Too many times people here on GCA only cherry pick a few courses and then blow them into greater tales of what is happening. If I had to name another good Nicklaus layout -- opened within the last five years -- which highlights playability and diversity of holes -- check out The Peninsula in the Rehoboth, Delaware area. Jack did a fine job on creating land of interest on this very flat parcel -- works out well -- but given the Delaware location few likely have played it.

Andy:

Forgive my confusion in my previous response. I do like Wolf Creek -- especially as a match play venue. If I had to name courses that are really tough I would likely begin with a few Florida layouts that combine OB, H20 and have very penal outcomes in a number of situations. I was never a fan of The Monster Course at The Concord or The International in Bolton, MA or The Bear layout in MI. I can likely add a few other candidates as well.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

How many times did you play Red Ledges?   Reason I ask is that views can be skewed based on how you played that particular day.

It seems to me that ratings are getting out of control.  I've seen a couple courses in WI this summer that seem WAY out of line - 74 and higher ratings.  They are newer courses...it seems as thought the ratings are not keeping up with better players and technology.  Just a thought.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I played roughly 36 holes when I was at Red Ledges. Do you have a certain number of rounds which are needed before people can weigh in with their thoughts? There was a fairly brisk wind at times blowing throughout the round so I did get to sample the course in a range of situations. I thought I got a good handle on what is there -- no doubt having more rounds with any course will add to one's appreciation or lack thereof.

The issue with ratings is multi-faceted and if you can spell out in greater detail what you think is "out of control" I really can't comment in total detail.

Let me say this though -- I have been a consistent proponent of the mountain time zone becauise a number of really outstanding courses have opened in the area and yet so little has happened to have them properly elevated to a rightful position with the top tier layouts we have here in the USA, in my mind. Unfortunately, as the Double Eagle thread has demonstrated -- often you will get courses that make such a listing and hang on long after their overall worth has peaked. There is also, in my mind, the same prevalent situation with a few Northeast clubs that have benefited from being near more deserving courses and have simply glommed on to their status.

You mentioned about courses in WI. Which ones are you speaking about? I mentioned previously about one in WI that I see as being one of the most overrated layouts in the USA.

Mike, I would dare say that Red Ledges combines a range of unique and stellar elements that would make it a viable candidate for consideration for national attention. As I said already - from the many different courses I have played in UT to date -- I see it as the best of the bunch thus far. Again, just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks ...

Andy:

To add another over-the-top course with extreme difficulty -- Pound Ridge in the Westchester County, NY area. Extremely narrow and very demanding driving course that makes places like Wolf Creek look like child's play

[Rob Rigg]

Matt - RL versus Tetherow in terms of difficulty for the average golfer?

If a course is tougher than Tetherow - anyone above a 5 or so really needs to accept that they have to play within their limitations. Appropriate tees, and appropriate clubs off those tees. Since Tetherow opened, I have read a lot of complaints on various sites about the ridiculous difficulty of the course with some golfers calling for it to be "burned". I disagree, but when an architect pushes the envelope . . . Hopefully RL does not fall victim to the same sentiment.

Sometimes I wonder if architects truly understand the wide shot dispersion that almost all but the low amateur/pro golfers face on a daily basis regardless of wind. There are straight hitters out there, but I would argue that there are more who are long and directionally challenged. This makes "target driving" courses a real chore, especially since most golfers play their "driver" tees instead of "3 wood or hybrid" tees.

While this is the fault of the golfer for playing the wrong tees, it is also the fault of the architect for taking that club out of the hands of many golfers who are hell bent and determined to use it.

I have not been to RL, so not sure if that is the case, just making a general point based on some of the previous posts.

Sounds like Utah is definitely worth a trip - although many of the courses are walking challenged due to the terrain. Still, nice to hear about compelling new courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Rob:

Let me just say this when sheer difficulty is debated -- Red Ledges and Tetherow can't hold a candle to the likes of what the Dyes created at Pound Ridge -- their new upscale daily fee layout in Westchester County, NY. I have heard a few similar comments to what Pete did with his layout at French Lick, IN.

PR does one thing very well -- POUND golfers into the ground. All of the items that you get certain people bitching and moaning about are carried to the Nth degree at PR. I say that with a healthy regard for when designs can get really demandingl / intense. PR doesn't give you much of anything to shoot at when playing. It's pile on to the max. Red Ledges and Tetherow are more than fair in so many more ways. No doubt one can tweak a few items -- the eyebrowed bunkers at Tetherow are one case in point.

Rob, have to take issue with one of your comments. Players need to ADJUST to the course that's presented. It's not the other way around as you stated. Unfortunately, the ego of a number of male players cannot admit to themselves that they need to play a more forward tee position in order to successfully golf their ball around the layout.

The usual answer from those who are so challenged is to turn the argument around and make the course the culprit. The architect didn't take the club out of their hands as you state -- but rather the player needs to select the best club that will do what is needed for that particular situation -- in a number of cases -- it doesn't mean an automatic selection of the driver on all holes.

Red Ledges will be for UT what Rock Creek has been for MT golf and Ballyneal has been for CO golf. I know many people will say that's high company indeed. I'm not saying that Red Ledges is equal to Rock Creek or Ballyneal but it's clearly taken UT golf to a whole different level and when the dust settles on all the small items that need to be handled I see the course being rated among the best in the nation - it clearly is among the best courses I have ever played.

[Joel Zuckerman]

Sounds like Utah is definitely worth a trip - although many of the courses are walking challenged due to the terrain. Still, nice to hear about compelling new courses.

Rob--Remember that every Utah GC mentioned in this thread is private, so bear that in mind if/when you decide to pay a visit.

I see the course being rated among the best in the nation - it clearly is among the best courses I have ever played.

Wow--that is a strong statement, especially considering you've played so very many golf courses in general, and I imagine many of the nation's finest!  Personally, I liked it, but there are a couple I like just as much or better in the very same zip code!

[John Kirk]

Matt -

I also don't get the playability issue. If a player mind-numbingly brings out driver on every hole, then I suppose a person could call it penal . . . but from 220-280, the fairways were 30-40 yards wide. 3 wood takes a lot of the narrowness out of play. Of course, if you can get driver in play, you are rewarded with speed slots or much shorter approaches. I felt the course was almost too easy from the tee.

Jed,

30-40 yard fairways in the 220-280 range are fine, as long as there is 10-15 yards in play on each side.  30-40 yards wide with OB or hazard encroaching tightly is not enough room.

Any time a course gets a 140 or over slope, you can almost guarantee there is an abundance of two stroke mistake opportunities.

[Rob Rigg]

Matt,

It sounds like RL is certainly worth a visit.

I am not debating that golfers SHOULD play the appropriate tees - but based on my experiences at challenging courses, most golfers do not.

What I am suggesting is that, architects need to keep in mind while designing their course the fact that many golfers will NOT play the appropriate tees but probably one or even two back. The hubris that many golfers have, can severely hurt their ability to enjoy a challenging course.

While some may say - "too bad for them" or "who cares" - the ownership of the course and architect should be cogniscent of this fact, because an unhappy golfer will not return for another round (which is something that I constantly read about with Tetherow) or consider joining a club/buying a property.

If the fairways are fairly wide then the penalty for these golfers is long irons into the greens, if the course is going to be narrow or very target specific (ie - distance and ball placement important on most tee shots) then the outcome is lost balls and a lot of whining about how unfair the course is.

To improve the average golfer's enjoyment of their course, again IMO, they should consider making landing corridors wider for these golfers who, while playing the wrong tees, will also be passing judgement on the course.

I firmly believe that a talented architect can create a demanding course for the low handicapper while still stroking the ego of the average golfer (up to a certain reasonable point) by providing some love to Average Joe off the tee, while making him work for his par/bogey around the greens.

I totally understand that not everyone will agree with this somewhat "hand holding" sentiment, but I believe the average score of people who golf is somewhere around 102-105 and most people who consider themselves "golfers" shoot somewhere in the 90s.

Joel - That is a good call out  - always unfortunate when the "great" courses in any area are mostly private.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Let me point out that I have been a big time proponent of Glenwild for quite some time. Many here on GCA have never played golf in UT -- let alone play a private place like Glenwild. When I have seen or played over 75+ TF courses it astounds me that Glenwild is simply invisible when other rated courses are chosen because of their favorable geographic position in more known or favorable golf hotspots. Another situation that cries out for bias against the mountain time zone.

Joel, I hope you are not going to take the position that Victory Ranch is a better golf course than Red Ledges -- if you do please be prepared to have all your details ready to roll. I liked Victory Ranch in a number of areas -- the collective sense of the back nine there is some of the best Rees Jones holes I have played since the likes of Olde Kinderhook came forward a number of years ago. However, Rees has again forced fed his style and appearances on the UT landscape and frankly the hop-scotch usage of several tee pads only makes the golf course stand OUT against the beautiful countryside instead of blending in with it.

Red Ledges is blessed with land that is truly inspiring. Like I said -- when you drive through Heber City you get no CLUE on what is there until you actually stand on the 1st tee and see what lies before you. I have heard also on the grapevine that Johnny Miller, a nearby resident who lives close to Red Ledges, sees it too as the state's best course.

Joel, I understand your concerns about the firmness of the greens. But, there are plenty of top tier courses already rated and some which are from the classic period -- that keep their putting surfaces very firm or nearly as firm as the weather will allow. Red Ledges demonstrates for me how Jack Nicklaus has evolved from his earliest days -- in that time frame it would have been the Bear bulldozing the land to the point where the UT countryside would have been shaped into something far removed from where it is.

I think the overall pacing of the holes you encounter and the tremendous variety of shots / hole played is beyond what I have played to date in all of UT. Red Ledges may not get a fair shake here on GCA because Nicklaus is seen in an ambivalent manner by a number of people. I am not a fan of all of his layouts but I see no reason or reservation on my part to say the course is high quality fun and time spent there will always be remembered for the right reasons.

Rob:

In regards to what golfers do when picking tee boxes my late father had a phrase he would use when describing the nature of people ... you can work with ignorance -- you just can't help stupidity. If people want to really improve they need to understand their limitations (like Clint Easrwood famously said). Once they do that -- then they really examine the nature of the design for its merits or lack thereof.

I don't know if Doak said it but I can recall reading it somewhere that the overwhelming majority of players should be playing courses that are no more than 6,500 yards. That would keep the situation of having to HIT the ball in proportion to what they can consistently deliver. Of course, most men who play the game would scoff at such a distance and bring forward a severe case of "blue-tee-itis."

The prospective plan you have suggested for designs is evident at Red Ledges -- but the stipulation falls upon the player playing the appropriate tees for that type of enjoyment to have some degree of happening. I mentioned earlier that the existing slope from the member tees at Red Ledges is badly calculated because the width areas provided from such markers is quite wide and the playing angles when standing on such tees is not as intense either. But to the credit of Nicklaus and his team they have raised the meter on the mind games you face when playing there -- the incredible beauty of the scenery adds to the thoughts of the player that the course is much tougher than it actually is. On that score I salute the architect in getting into the heads and under the skins of so many players.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

No, I don't have an exact formula on how many rounds you need to weigh in.  I see a huge distinction on reviewing and rating (rating would reqire, in my mind, at least 10 rounds).  That's all....it's interesting to me because I see some rating that are a lot higher these days....don't know if it has to do with yardage and "hype" more than the course itself.  I wonder what the official rating guidelines require - I have no idea.

One course in WI would be the Legend at Brandybrook - rating from the black tees is something close to 75....seems out of whack to me.  What course were you referring to as overrated?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Being realistic it would not be possible for the majority of raters to have to play a place no less than ten (10) times as you stipulated prior to it being rated -- this would certainly cause more of an issue for those courses which are either remote or in states that generally don't get much coverage from the get-go. That is especially the case for layouts in places like the mountain time zone.

Mike, you can check the USGA Website for the specific guidlines for course ratings / slope. Often time I see certain locales here in the USA as overrating the numbers when compared to other similar courses in different parts of the country -- I mentioned how that happens to a number of courses in my neck of the woods (metro NYC area).

In regards to overrated WI courses I see Whistling Straits as such -- no doubt the closeness to Lake Michigan helps the Straits Course but so many of the design elements there have been repeated previously by Team Dye. The Irish layout there is an absolute mutt in my mind.

[Joel Zuckerman]

 I see a huge distinction on reviewing and rating (rating would reqire, in my mind, at least 10 rounds). 

Mike--Nice thought, but not realistic.  I was a long-time panelist at one of the USA's most highly-regarded rating panels (magazine affiliated) and, while there were numerous guidelines regarding conduct and decorum, we were never expected to play a GC more than once before delivering a numerical 1--10 rating.

It's tough enough to rate 10--20--30 GC's annually that you've never seen before, never mind sticking around to play said GC a 2nd or 3rd time later that day or the next.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Just curious what holes did you like the most / least at Red Ledges and what course in all of UT is the best you have played there ?

Thanks ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Buy a lot, get a Mercedes!!!

www.redledges.com

Seriously, how many high end residential golf communities can this country have in this economy, even if it is actually recovering?

[David Savic]

Tom Doak, maybe you would not find Nicklaus golf courses so difficult if you would strenthen your grip, play your ball further back in your stance and not use golf equipment that is so outdated it is literally falling apart!   
 

[Joel Zuckerman]

Joel:

Just curious what holes did you like the most / least at Red Ledges and what course in all of UT is the best you have played there ?

Thanks ...

Matt--sorry for the very tardy reply!  At RL,  I disliked the difficulty of some of the uphill approaches---the 12th (maybe 13th) in particular. Also--the greens were rock-hard, which will of course be less of a problem in a year or so. I liked the opening tee shot, and the beauty of the red rock surrounds late in the front 9.  It's now been about 2 months since my visit, I whipped around the GC twice in about 7 hours, so it's something of a blur.  I will add more detail next time I visit, next summer.

As for Utah as a whole, I have played 17 courses in the state, all in and around Park City, and like Glenwild, Victory Ranch, Jeremy Ranch and the Dye Course at Promontory as my favorite four.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Thanks for the belated reply.

Candidly, I salute Team Nicklaus for the uphill hills. Early on in Jack's design career he would go out of his way to include many holes that were downhill -- the thought process being to provide players with a clear view of all the elements involved. In some cases it worked better than most might realize -- it other cases it became rather contrived because it forced upon the terrain a series of major compromises all for the sake of such a design accomodation.

Red Ledges is blessed with superb terrain -- it's hard to imagine that you can be standing on Main Street in Heber City and not more than two (2) miles away is such a wonderful site. You are so right on the color contrasts you get with the sparkling red rocks as the sun moves across the property throughout the day.

I like the various uphill holes at Red Ledges -- the 2nd is well done -- you need to position the tee shot and 2nd because of the plentitude of the bunkers and contours on the green. The 11th and 12th are both well done -- although the greensite at #12 is quite severe -- with the back-to-front slope. Keep in mind, what you failed to add, is that the benefit of the elevation does minimize the uphill nature. One hole often left unsaid is the qualities of the uphill 16th par-5 hole. The split nature of the fairway for the decision on the 2nd shot makes for exciting strategic calculations. One can decide to cross over the split or even play from the frontal position -- although the play from that spot is more daunting because of the angle involved.

When you say the greens are rock hard -- they played firm when I was there but there's enough landing area to handle well-played iron approaches. Frankly, many people lament that too many greens on new courses can be like shooting darts -- Red Ledges favors the firm and fast conditions many people advocate and the putting surfaces come in a wide variety of shapes and configurations. No doubt that may change with the 2010 playing season but I like the idea that firm greens call upon well-thought out approach shots - they also make players have to calculate the sloping nature of the greens and how best to get to the appropriate area of each putting surface.

I have had the opportunity to personally play a wide range of Nicklaus courses over the years and Red Ledges rates among the very best I have played. The land site is simply an awesome thing to behold -- the routing covers all the key areas of the property and the range of holes is as fine as I have played from the hands of Jack Nicklaus and crew.

Joel, if there's any hole that really pushes the envelope it's the 260-yard par-3 15th -- the length of the shot is complicated by a series of green contours -- plus the angle of the green itself. Played from 200-yards it still is demanding but not as terrifying.

Red Ledges will likely get little attention because so many people see the linkage of quality golf and the State of Utah as not being joined at the hip. I used to believe that Glenwild -- the wonderful TF design -- as the Beehive State's best layout. Red Ledges captures that slot now.

The other four courses you mentioned are all good choices but I don't see the likes of Jeremy Ranch and the Dye Course at Promontory being near the likes of the first two -- RL and Glenwild.

Joel, how did you find the playability dimension? There's plenty of fairway width and even if one misses a number of fairways there are shot options from just off the fairways. One last item -- I think the 1st hole is a stellar opening hole. You see the landing area below you and the manner by which the solitary fairway bunker juts out makes you think twice about how close to hit near it. When I played the wind was really blowing in so you needed to hit the tee shot but still avoid pulling it left into near certain deadsville.

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