[Jay Flemma]

I was thrilled to get the good fortune to be paired with Stephen Kay, who did the great restoration work on a few holes of Forsgate (Banks).  he also redesigned some holes on the palmer course.

First, here's how Stephen marks his Titleist:



next, here's the short, complete with horseshoe, (12th hole):



here's the eden (number 3)



number 16 - double plateau



number 17 - biarritz



more biarritz



It was the annual writers cup and for the second time Philly beat NYC.  Mikey Kern of Philly picked up the trpohy for the scribes from cheesesteak land.

I thought the course was everything it was billed to be and then some, just wonderful.  Fave holes were 5 (punchbowl) 6 (knoll), 12 15 (chocolate drop) and 16 & 17.  Great course, even nicer people.  There are a few more trees i'd cut down on several holes, but hey, it's a great course.  They billed it as the last one Banks did before he died?  1931?

[Matt_Ward]

Jay:

Good storyline / re: Forsgate and Stephen Kay.

Hats off to Chris Schiavone and to Stephen for the work and effort they both have put in.

Forsgate gets scant attention because it's located in the world of NJ Tpke Exit 8A which is halfway between Phila and NYC.

The Banks layout is quite fascinating and hats off to Chris in making it a labor of love to restore it's past glory.

I have said this before -- the four collective par-3's at The Banks Course are only exceeded by the quartet of similar holes you find at Pine Valley.

Of all the holes I believe the Eden 3rd is the toughest of the lot -- generally plays back into the wind and the pic Jay posted doesn't really show the rib cage that runs from the back of the green to the front and separating the two halves.

You also have a unique back-to-back par-5 combo at the superb uphill 8th and the always risk / reward 9th.

The Banks Course can't host a major men's event - it would need at least another 300-400 yards but it could easily host an event such as the Women's Open.

For all the layouts I have played in NJ the facility can make a good case in being considered for a top ten overall position.

One final item -- those who see the adjoinign bunkers next to the holes should make note that the drop point from the green to the base of the bunker at the 3rd (right hand side) is no less than 15 feet.

One final item -- the 16th that Jay mentioned has three (3) separate green areas -- in fact, Banks copied this design element when he created the 16th at Essex County CC in West Orange.

[Jay Flemma]

good stuff matt...wish you could have hung out more.

[David Druzisky]

How good of an example would you guys say that short is?  I guess I would expect a little more surface area outside the horseshoe. No?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

David,

  I think there's between 6 and 10 feet around the horseshoe-maybe a little more.  More room behind it.  Biarritz looks really good-itt has that thumbprint in it, like at Knoll West.  Eden bunkers don't look as deep as I remember. 

Houses still way too close on holes 2-5, but this looks great.  I do hope to get back here.  Stephen Kay is a very nice guy-we have talked several times at GAP events. 

[David Druzisky]

Thanks Doug.  Thats what it looks like and that is why I am a little perplexed.  I my preference would be to have enough area outside the horseshoe to have pinnable area on all sides of it.  The horseshoe then becomes something that messes with your put to the other side etc.  Hmm.  I will have to pay a little more attention to some of the others I guess.

The other do look great - old world.

[Jay Flemma]

1.  The bunkers on the e4den are MUCH deepeer than my photo shows.

2.  A lot of the shorts I have played have been really tight around the outside of the horseshoe or the thumbpring...sleepy hollow and stonebridge come to mind immediately.  My guess is that would depend on the course...

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

How much more room do you want? My God -- the hole is at best 145 yards -- plays slightly downhill from an elevated tee. Unless you face a headwind or tailwind of serious note -- NJ doesn't have daily wind speeds like Kansas / Nebraska, etc, etc..

If a player has a short iron then it's fair game to expect them to hit it properly for the distance faced. Is it a tight fit? Sure. Is it doable for the well-played shot. No doubt in my mind. In fact, the Short at The Banks Course is as good a rendition as one will find anywhere.

If people, not you I might add -- gush over a hole like The Dell at Lahinch -- then the requirements at The Short at The Banks Course are more than fair and appropriate for the club one will likely play in my mind.

Doug B:

The bunkers at the Eden 3rd are quite deep -- the right one is minimu 15 feet below the top portion of the right side of the green. No e-z bunker shot by any means. Like I said before -- only Pine Valley can make a more convincing case regarding the collective strength of their four par-3's. The Banks Course -- after getting the 17th straightened out is really solid.

One other note -- one of the more underrated holes at The Banks Course is twofold -- the long uphill par-4 8th and the closing hole. The latter has been beefed up with a new tip tee bringing total length there to just under 450 yards. The approach there to a far right pin placement is still first rate stuff indeed.

Last item -- the homes you mentioned are a minor eye-issue only. They are well setback and if someone is living in a fantasy world in which the course must be clutter free for miles all around then that's just not doable for nearly all NJ courses.

[Jay Flemma]

I can't believe no one other than me gets a charge out of the way stephen kay marks his golf ball!!!  hello?!  redan?!  he does all kinds of other holes too!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Dave:

How much more room do you want? My God -- the hole is at best 145 yards -- plays slightly downhill from an elevated tee. Unless you face a headwind or tailwind of serious note -- NJ doesn't have daily wind speeds like Kansas / Nebraska, etc, etc..

If a player has a short iron then it's fair game to expect them to hit it properly for the distance faced. Is it a tight fit? Sure. Is it doable for the well-played shot. No doubt in my mind. In fact, the Short at The Banks Course is as good a rendition as one will find anywhere.

If people, not you I might add -- gush over a hole like The Dell at Lahinch -- then the requirements at The Short at The Banks Course are more than fair and appropriate for the club one will likely play in my mind.

Doug B:

The bunkers at the Eden 3rd are quite deep -- the right one is minimu 15 feet below the top portion of the right side of the green. No e-z bunker shot by any means. Like I said before -- only Pine Valley can make a more convincing case regarding the collective strength of their four par-3's. The Banks Course -- after getting the 17th straightened out is really solid.

Matt, I know the bunkers are VERY deep--I seemed to remember them being WAY deeper than that, but, as we've discussed, it's been a few years since I've seen it firsthand.  I'm a proponent of Forsgate, remember--I'm on your team! 

One other note -- one of the more underrated holes at The Banks Course is twofold -- the long uphill par-4 8th and the closing hole. The latter has been beefed up with a new tip tee bringing total length there to just under 450 yards. The approach there to a far right pin placement is still first rate stuff indeed.

Last item -- the homes you mentioned are a minor eye-issue only. They are well setback and if someone is living in a fantasy world in which the course must be clutter free for miles all around then that's just not doable for nearly all NJ courses.

I'm not so sure about that.  The homes do come in pretty close, specifically to 2 fairway, 3 tee, and 5 tee.  As a basis for comparison, I think they're probably closer to areas of play than the homes that border holes at Lederach.  It is what it is.  It's RDC's property and their decision to do what they want.  The bottom line is, it's a great course that often gets overlooked due to more famous other courses in the state.  RDC and Kay have done a world of good there and it's an enjoyable place to play that is a good test of golf.

[Jay Flemma]

bump...so everyone can see pix of the Biarritz and the horseshoe in the Short.

[Matt_Ward]

Jay, et al:

Hard to imagine a Banks design such as the one at Forsgate is not really seen as the dynamic layout it is.

Not long by modern standards but possesses all the elements of fun and challenging holes.

The back-to-back par-5 holes (8th and 9th) are first rate -- ditto the four par-3 holes.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think it's time next year for a GCA Conclave at Forsgate. The location in central NJ just off the NJ Turnpike is ideal for those coming down from New England or up from DC metro area. This course needs to be played. It passes the Mucci test- let's play 18 more!!!

[Jay Flemma]

Count me in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I'd attribute Forsgate's lack of notoriety to its location, it's not considered a Philly or a New York course and as such gets left in limbo.

It's a terrific golf course, unique and fun to play.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Limbo?

If people can get to Sand Hills -- or Links of North Dakota or any other remote course the idea that Forsgate is so difficult to get to just doesn't wash for me. Exit 8A off the NJ Tpke -- is far from remote although I understand what you wrote.

Ignorance can indeed be bliss -- but what really surprises me is that extensive upgrades have been to the faciility -- credit Chris Schiavone for that. Also to what Stephen Kay did for the layout too -- with the restored Biaritz 17th hole.

Steve:

Sounds like a cool idea.

I'd be happy to set something up via the folks at the facility. Touch base w me offline to discuss further.

[Matt_Ward]

Many folks here on GCA have likely never played the Banks Course at Forsgate.

Given what Steve mentioned about putting together an outing - I'd like to get an informal showing of hands from those who might want to attend such a gathering -- likely it will need to be next spring given the fast ending time frame for this season.'

If there are a number of people interested I can certainly reach out to the folks at the club and see what can work. More than likely I can also try to put together some sort of AM program with golf to follow after lunch.

Thanks ...

[Jay Flemma]

Matt Ward,

I'd attribute Forsgate's lack of notoriety to its location, it's not considered a Philly or a New York course and as such gets left in limbo.

It's a terrific golf course, unique and fun to play.

BUt on media day they made us play "Philly vs. NYC."  Philly won for the second year in a row.

Mikey Kern hoisted the trophy for victorious Philly.

[Mike Sweeney]

Many folks here on GCA have likely never played the Banks Course at Forsgate.

Given what Steve mentioned about putting together an outing - I'd like to get an informal showing of hands from those who might want to attend such a gathering -- likely it will need to be next spring given the fast ending time frame for this season.'

If there are a number of people interested I can certainly reach out to the folks at the club and see what can work. More than likely I can also try to put together some sort of AM program with golf to follow after lunch.

Thanks ...

With the obvious scheduling conflicts, I would love to see Forsgate gain, post changes.

[astavrides]

I add my hand to the show of hands.

[Justin Broderson]

a GCA event within an hour drive, I'm there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt and Jay,

You missed the point.

Forsgate isn't deemed to be a New York course or a Philly course, thus it gets satelite status in the golfing and media world.

If it was 15 minutes from either Manhattan or CC you'd hear alot more about it, AND, it would be hosting MGA or GAP tournaments regularly.

But, it's not, it's remote to both cities, and as such, it gets stepchild treatment.

Them's the facts, like it or not.

[Ron Csigo]

Hand raised.  Would love to see the Banks course @ Forsgate.

[archie_struthers]

 


nice day here at the Jersey Shore , I'm soon off to Stone Harbor for a tournament (real golf ) bet the average score will be over 80 in a scratch event.....lots of wind and very fast greens today!


Stephen Kay is a real gentleman and lover of the game...tha' s a pretty good start ...he's not full of himself and has some real interesting ideas about golf history and architecture ...I'm sure you enjoyed his company ...he has done lots of work here in the South Jersye area , notably Blue Heron Pines ,  Scotland Run , Harbor Pines , a redo at Linwood CC , renovations at LLanarch quite nice  etc etc  ...

the Banks course is a real classic , not to be missed short by todays standards but lots of fun with great visuals  play it !

[Jay Flemma]

Matt and Jay,

You missed the point.

Forsgate isn't deemed to be a New York course or a Philly course, thus it gets satelite status in the golfing and media world.

If it was 15 minutes from either Manhattan or CC you'd hear alot more about it, AND, it would be hosting MGA or GAP tournaments regularly.

But, it's not, it's remote to both cities, and as such, it gets stepchild treatment.

Them's the facts, like it or not.

I didn't miss that point, Pat...if fact I agree.  But regardless, it shouldn't because I think it's a helluva banks course and can stand in its own against a goodly number of Tillie's or Ross's I've played that don't have as much character...at least to me. 

Plus because iot's in the middle, it's ideally placed to host NYC v. Philly.  Maybe if we have a get together, that's how we should divvy up teams! 

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