[Rob Rigg]

Since this is an informal ranking based on opinions of GCA members - would it not be easier to take an "accepted" list like the top 100 and top 100 modern and then allow members to "propose" a course that they truly believe should be considered?

If so, the criteria could be that the course has been discussed on the site and multiple members have played it. This would get an RCCC on the list while BFE CC in Antarctica would remain off it.

Again, depending on what we are hoping to get out of this and in respect to Ian's time for putting it together.

[Ian_L]

Wow, thanks for putting that together, Tom. That looks like a lot of work.  I suppose all that's left is for me to compile the top 100 from GB&I... and then a nomination process I suppose to get those courses like Tetherow and Rock Creek onto the ballot?  I don't think it should take too long, since we do have an extensive list already.

Rob, I agree with you that a nomination process is the way to go.  I don't really see the problem with having more than enough courses, so I figure why not make the nomination process shorter and easier by having most courses on the list already?  If a course is bad, it just won't be rated very high.

Matt, I understand your opinion.  Again, this is not meant to be a ground-breaking activity that will forever change golfclubatlas.com .  Take it how you wish.  As for giving more experienced voters more weight, you're assuming (1) people who have played more courses are invariably more qualified to rate courses, and (2) there's a precise way to measure this.  Also, this simply gives more power to the established GCAers who already drive the general consensus of the site (not that I have anything against them!).

For your argument against "base floor ratings,"  I would say that the damage done to the list by several cheaters will far outweigh benefit of the one or two voters who might honestly have drastically different opinions from the rest.  It's unfortunate that all honest votes may not count, but I think it's important to have some kind of security, as we saw in the first exercise.

Matthew, I suppose if you feel got a great look at the course you could rate it.  Personally, I have walked Pebble Beach twice in the AT&T Pro-Am, but I wouldn't dream of rating it simply from that walk.  If you feel comfortable with your experience with the course, though, I won't stop you (obviously).

I would be interested in hearing more opinions about how to order the list on the ballot.  I do have a couple concerns about listing the top 100 first:
#1 It might encourage voters to actually vote these courses down more than usual to get their course higher up the list.
#2 Where would we put the other 300 courses that aren't in the top 100?

I will definitely include a definition of an 8 as a "top 100 course" in the final instructions.

I'm a bit busy the next couple weeks but hopefully I will be able to compile the GB&I top 100 and put all these courses together into one BIG list.  As always, more commentary and suggestions are appreciated.

[John Kavanaugh]

This can all be cleared up quite simply if the votes are under the name of the person rating the course.  Since I thought we were all honest on here with our observations I can not see why anyone would be scared of standing behind their rankings.  Brad Klein, Ron Whitten and Joe Passov each sign their names to their published ballots so why can't we? 

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

A quick response ...

All raters are not equal. It's not like a regular election where the concept of one man one vote applies.

Those who see / play more courses have a greater potfolio of layouts to base their feelings upon. No doubt there's no guarantee that such people are more critical or more analytic but plenty of raters are simply regionalistic in their overall scope. Now, I see that perspective being helpful if one were simply rating courses from such a smaller area because of the frequency in seeing such courses. When you expand that to the national or global stage it tends to minimize their overall conclusions because their base for such comparisons and contrasts becomes rather limiting.

Ian, in regards to the "cheater" defense -- keep in mind, it's in intervention by the people doing the surveying and does serve to manipulate the final outcome. Once you start setting boundaries on what people can vote you get nothing more than the predictable spreadsheet of the same courses time after time after time. I don't doubt you have people who will try to skew things with abnormally low or high findings. But I'm not sufficiently trained to determine which of these folks is expressing themselves truthfully or simply trying give a few courses a boat ride either way too high or too low.

Although not directed to me -- there should be a time line weighting as to when a rating number is given. Why? Sometimes a course from three years ago may not have finished some sort of work going on there. Three years later that work could have concluded and therefore the factor of time as to when the course is played should matter and be accounted for. I often ask this of people when they recommend a course -- when was the last time they played it? If someone raves about a place but there last time there was 6-7years ago I make a mental note of that because in the time frame between that round and when I may play there things may have changed dramatically -- in either direction.

Ian, please don't think I have something against your noble mission. I commend you -- I just don't see merit in consensus lists because they have a tendendy to keep a number of so-so courses that are mediocre because of the visibility and proximity issues I touched upon in a previous post on this topic.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,

Are you going to submit votes in this exercise?  At the very least I hope a list of contributors is posted so people are informed if this is a GCA process or just the folly of a few fools.  note:  I will not be voting.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian,

I voted last time - is the idea to fatten out the list and do this again?

...other ian

[John Kirk]

Ian,

If you're really going to pursue this, I would like to nominate the following courses to the overall list:

Madison Club, LaQuinta, CA
Mountaintop GC, Cashiers, NC
Stone Eagle, Palm Desert, CA
Colorado GC, Parker, CO

That's all.  I haven't played the first two here, but I find both intriguing.

[Matt_Ward]

John K:

No, I won't be participating.

I much prefer viewing the list of individuals rather than consensus groups however noble the intention.

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

Perhaps you are correct that the number 201 course in America is better than the number 3 course in China ... but how could you say that before you've voted once, at least?

It seems more certain that the number 201 course in America (according to GOLFWEEK's extensive polling) would have a hard time making a list of the top 100 courses in the world.

That is why I suggested that Ian publish his results, but only down to the #150 spot or something ... after that, he probably doesn't have enough information to be accurate, because some course that wasn't on the ballot might have placed that highly.

[Ian_L]

Here is the Top 100 GB&I according to Golf World.  If you see any confusing titles please let me know, as I'm not familiar with all of these courses, and Golf World didn't do a great job naming the courses (they all end in "Golf Course").

Aberdovey
Adare Manor
Aldeburgh
Alwoodley
Ballybunion
Ballyliffin
Blairgowrie Rosemount
Broadstone
Burnham & Berrow
Carne
Carnoustie (Championship)
Carton House (Montgomerie)
Castle Course at St. Andrews
Castletown Links
Chart Hills
County Louth
County Sligo
Cruden Bay
Donegal
Doonbeg
Druid's Glen
Dundonald
Ferndown (Old)
Formby
Ganton
Gleneagles King's
Gleneagles PGA Centenary
Goodwood
Gullane (No. 1)
Hankley Common
Hillside
Hunstanton
Kingsbarns
Lahinch
Lindrick
Little Aston
Loch Lomond
Machrie
Macrihanish
Mount Juliet
Muirfield
Nairn
Nefyn
New Zealand (Surrey, England)
North Berwick
Notts (Hollinwell)
Old Head of Kinsale
Portmarnock (Old)
Prestwick
Remedy Oak
Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Ashdown Forest
Royal Birkdale
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal St. David's
Royal St. George's
Royal Troon
Royal West Norfolk
Rye
Saunton (East)
Silloth-On-Solway
Southerness
Southport & Ainsdale
St. Andrews (Old)
St. Enodoc
St. George's Hill
St. Mellion (NIcklaus)
Sunningdale (New)
Sunningdale (Old)
Swinley Forest
The Addington
The Belfry, Brabazon
The Berkshire (Blue)
The Berkshire (Red)
The Duke's, St. Andrews
The European Club
The Island (Dublin, Ireland)
The K Club (Palmer)
Tralee
Turnberry (Ailsa)
Walton Heath (New)
Walton Heath (Old)
Waterville
Wentrorth (West)
Wentworth (East)
West Hill
West Sussex
Western Gailes
Woburn Dukes
Woburn Marquess
Woking
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
Worplesdon

Unless there are strong objections, my plan is to post the entire list on another thread soon and allow GCAers to nominate more courses.  Any suggestions on how to do this?  I was thinking of requiring a nomination to be supported by at least one other member to make the list.

[Ian_L]

Ian,

I voted last time - is the idea to fatten out the list and do this again?

...other ian

Sorry other Ian, I missed your post.  Yes, this list will hopefully include all potential top 100 courses rather than just the GOLF Magazine Top 100.  We'll also use statistics to try to prevent manipulation of the list, which we saw last time.

[Ian_L]

There is now a new thread for the nomination process.

[Ian_L]

Just an update, the final list has been compiled, and is included in this post.  The question now is how to proceed.  My suggestion would be to create a poll just like the one I made for the first activity (using the Doak Scale) with all these courses included.  Then we could make an unweighted ranking (every member's vote counts equally), and a weighted one (golfers who have played more courses get a larger weighting) as there was interest in this as well.  Hopefully Jonathan has some time to help me out with the second part!

As for security, I believe the consensus was to require the voter to enter his GCA.com user name to prevent double voting.  I will begin work on this as soon as I can, although I'm not sure if I'll get it in before my trip to Oregon this weekend.

One more question, how long should this poll be open?  I believe 6 months was suggested a while back.  Your opinions on this would be appreciated as well.  Thanks to everyone who's participated, especially those of you who have contributed your time and ideas to this activity.


Again, here is our final ballot:

Abaco Club
Aberdovey
Adare Manor
Aldeburgh
Alotian Club
Alwoodley
Arcadia Bluffs
Aronimink Golf Club
Atlantic City Country Club
Atlantic Golf Club
Augusta Country Club
Augusta National Golf Club
Ballybunion
Ballyliffin
Ballyneal
Baltimore Country Club (East)
Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower)
Baltusrol Golf Club (Upper)
Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails 
Banff Springs
Barnbougle Dunes
Barona
Bayonne Golf Club
Beacon Hall
Bel-Air Country Club
Bethpage State Park (Black)
Beverly Country Club
Biella, Italy
Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)
Black Sheep Golf Club
Black Mesa Golf Club
Blackwolf Run Golf Club (River)
Blairgowrie Rosemount
Blue Canyon, Thailand
Boat of Garten
Boston Golf Club
Briggs Ranch Golf Club
Broadstone
Brook Hollow Country Club
Brookside Country Club
Burnham & Berrow
Butler National Golf Club
Cabo del Sol (Ocean)
Caledonia Golf & Fish Club
California Golf Club
Calusa Pines Golf Club
Camargo Club
Canterbury Golf Club
Cape Kidnappers, N.Z.
Capilano
Carne
Carnoustie (Championship)
Carton House (Montgomerie)
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
Cascata
Castle Course at St. Andrews
Castle Pines Golf Club
Castletown Links
Chambers Bay
Champions Golf Club (Cypress Creek)
Chantilly, France
Chart Hills
Cherry Hills Country Club
Chicago Golf Club
Club de Campo Madrid
Club de Golf Mexico
Club Zur Vahr, Bremen
Colonial Country Club
Colorado GC
Concession
Congressional Country Club (Blue)
Country Club of Fairfield
County Louth
County Sligo
Creek Club
Crooked Stick Golf Clu
Crosswater at Sunriver
Crown Colony Golf Club
Cruden Bay
Crystal Downs Country Club
Cypress Point Club
Dallas National Golf Club
De Pan
Desert Forest Golf Club
Devil's Paintbrush
Donegal
Doonbeg
Dorado Beach (East), Puerto Rico
Double Eagle Golf Club
Druid's Glen
Dundonald
Dunes Club
Dunes Golf & Beach Club
Durban CC
East Lake Golf Club
Eastward Ho!
Eindhoven
Ekwanok Country Club
El Rincon, Colombia
El Saler
Ellerston
Emirates GC (Wadi)
Engineers Club
Enniscrone
Erin Hills
Essex County Club
Eugene Country Club
Falsterbo
Fancourt (Links), S Africa
Fenway Golf Club
Ferndown (Old)
Fishers Island Golf Club
Flint Hills National Golf Club
Fontainebleau
Forest Creek Golf Club (North)
Forest Highlands Golf Club (Canyon)
Forest Dunes
Formby
Fox Chapel Golf Club
Franklin Hills Country Club
Friar’s Head 
Galloway National Golf Club
Ganton
Garden City Golf Club
Gary Player CC, Sun City
Gleneagles King's
Gleneagles PGA Centenary
Goodwood
Grandfather
Gulf Harbour
Gullane (No. 1)
Haagsche
Halmstad
Hamburger GC
Hamilton
Hankley Common
Harbour Town Golf Links
Harvester Golf Club
Hawk’s Ridge Golf Club
Hawktree Golf Club
Hazeltine National Golf Club
Hidden Creek Golf Club
Highlands Links
Hillside
Hirono
Hollywood Golf Club
Holston Hills Country Club
Homestead Resort (Cascades)
Honors Course 
Hunstanton
Huntingdon Valley Country Club
Indianwood Country Club (Old)
Interlachen Country Club
Inverness Club
Jasper Park
Jupiter Hills Golf Club (Hills)
Kapalua Golf Club (Plantation)
Karsten Creek Golf Club
Kasumigaseki (East)
Kauri Cliffs
Kawana (Fuji)
Kennemer
Kiawah Island Club (Cassique
Kingsbarns
Kingsley Club
Kingston Heath
Kinloch GC, Taupo
Kinloch Golf Club
Kittansett Club
Lagos de Caujaral, Colombia
Lahinch
Lahontan Golf Club
Lake Las Vegas (SouthShore)
Lancaster Country Club
Lawsonia Golf Club (Links)
Lehigh Country Club
Leopard Creek, S Africa
Les Bordes
Lindrick
Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort
Little Aston
Loch Lomond
Long Cove Club
Lookout Mountain
Los Angeles Country Club (North)
Los Leones, Chile
Lost Dunes Golf Club 
Lyford Cay, Bahamas
Machrie
Macrihanish
Madison Club
Maidstone Club
Mayacama Golf Club
Medinah Country Club (No. 3)
Merion Golf Club (East)
Metropolitan GC
Mid Ocean
Milwaukee Country Club
Mission Hills (Norman), China
Monterey Peninsula Country Club (Shore)
Morfontaine
Mount Juliet
Mountain Lake Club
Mountaintop GC
Muirfield
Muirfield Village
Musgrove Mill Golf Club
Myopia Hunt Club
Nairn
Nanea
Naruo
National GC (Moonah)
National GC of Canada
National Golf Links of America
NCR Country Club (South)
Nefyn
New South Wales GC
New Zealand (Surrey, England)
Newcastle GC
Newport Country Club
Nine Bridges, Korea
Nirwana Bali, Indonesia
Noordwijk
North Berwick
Northland Country Club
Notts (Hollinwell)
Oak Hill Country Club (East)
Oak Tree Golf Club
Oakland Hills Country Club (South)
Oakmont Country Club
Ocean Course at Kiawah Island
Ocean Forest Golf Club
Old Head of Kinsale
Old Tabby Links
Old Town Club
Old Sandwich Golf Club
Olde Farm Golf Club
Olivos GC
Olympia Fields Country Club (North)
Olympic Club (Lake)
Paa-Ko Ridge Golf Club
Pacific Dunes
Palmetto
Paraparaumu Beach
Pasatiempo Golf Club
Peachtree Golf Club
Pebble Beach Golf Links
Peninsula Papagayo, Costa Rica
Pennard
Pete Dye Golf Club
Pevero
Philadelphia Country Club (Spring Mill)
Phoenix CC, Miyazaki
Pine Needles Country Club
Pine Valley Golf Club
Pine Valley, Beijing
Pinehurst No. 2
Pinetree
Pinnacle Point, S Africa
Piping Rock
Plainfield Country Club
Point O’Woods Country Club
Portmarnock (Old)
Portstewart
Praia d'El Rey
Prairie Dunes Country Club
Prestwick
Princeville Golf Club (Prince)
Pronghorn (Fazio)
Pronghorn Club (Nicklaus)
Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club (Witch Hollow)
Punta Espada @ Cap Cana
Quail Hollow Golf Club
Quaker Ridge Golf Club
Quintero Golf and Country Club
Redtail
Remedy Oak
Ridgewood Country Club (East/West)
Riviera Country Club
Rock Creek Cattle Company
Rolling Green Golf Course
Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Royal Aberdeen
Royal Adelaide
Royal Ashdown Forest
Royal Birkdale
Royal Cinque Ports
Royal County Down
Royal Dar-es-Salaam (Red)
Royal Dornoch
Royal Liverpool
Royal Lytham & St. Annes
Royal Melbourne (East)
Royal Melbourne (West)
Royal Montreal (Blue)
Royal Porthcawl
Royal Portrush
Royal St. David's
Royal St. George's
Royal Troon
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Zoute
Rustic Canyon Golf Course
Rye
S.C. Berlin (Faldo)
Salem Country Club
San Francisco Golf Club
San Lorenzo
Sanctuary
Sand Hills Golf Club
Sandy Lane (Green Monkey)
Saunton (East)
Scioto Country Club
Sea Island Golf Club (Seaside)
Sebonack Golf Club
Secession Golf Club
Seminole Golf Club
Seven Canyons Golf Course
Shadow Creek Golf Club
Shaughnessy
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
Shoal Creek Golf Course
Shoreacres Golf Club
Silloth-On-Solway
Skokie Country Club
Somerset Hills Country Club
Sotogrande (Old)
Southern Highlands Golf Club
Southern Hills Country Club
Southerness
Southport & Ainsdale
Spring City (Lake), China
Spyglass Hill Golf Club
St. Andrews (Old)
St. Enodoc
St. George's (Canada)
St. George's Hill
St. Germain
St. Louis Country Club
St. Mellion (NIcklaus)
Stone Eagle
Sunnehanna Country Club
Sunningdale (New)
Sunningdale (Old)
Sutton Bay Club
Swinley Forest
Taconic Golf Club
Tetherow
The Addington
The Australian GC
The Belfry, Brabazon
The Berkshire (Blue)
The Berkshire (Red)
The Club at Black Rock
The Country Club (Composite)
The Duke's, St. Andrews
The European Club
The Golf Club
The Golf Club at Cuscowilla
The Island (Dublin, Ireland)
The Jockey Club (Red)
The K Club (Palmer)
The Minikahda Club
The Powder Horn
The Preserve
The Rim
The Stone Canyon Club
Tiger Beach, China
Titirangi
Tobacco Road
Tokyo Golf Club
TPC at Sawgrass (Players Stadium)
Tralee
Troia
Trump National Golf Club
Turnberry (Ailsa)
Valderrama
Valhalla Golf Club
Valley Club of Montecito
Victoria GC
Victoria National Golf Club
Wade Hampton Club
Wairakei, N.Z.
Walton Heath (New)
Walton Heath (Old)
Wannamoisett Country Club
Waterville
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
Wentrorth (West)
Wentworth (East)
West Hill
West Sussex
Westchester Country Club (West)
Western Gailes
Whippoorwill Country Club
Whisper Rock Golf Club (Upper)
Whistling Straits (Straits)
White Bear Yacht Club
White Witch, Jamaica
Wild Horse Golf Club
Winged Foot Golf Club (East)
Winged Foot Golf Club (West)
Woburn Dukes
Woburn Marquess
Woking
Wolf Run
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
World Woods Golf Club (Pine Barrens)
Worplesdon
Yale University Golf Course
Yeamans Hall Club

[Rob Rigg]

Ian,

Wow - that is a LIST!

Enjoy your trip to Oregon - it is freakin' cold here and we are expecting snow in P'town, needless to say Christmas is in the air - bring your mittens and a tuke!

[Jon Wiggett]

Ian,

it might be an idea (if not already done) to define exactly what the vote is about. Is it pure and sinple GCA merits of the course or total golfing experience. There are many different possible considerations. Are you or have you defined this?

[Ian_L]

Jon, that's a good point.  I assumed so far GCAers would be voting simply on the merits of the golf course, as we are measuring on the Doak Scale.  I think I will include this in the voting instructions.

[Tim Bert]

What ever happened with this?

[Brad Tufts]

Ditto...

[Ian_L]

Unfortunately, I will not be able to continue this project at this time. I would be happy to discuss via PM.

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