[Kalen Braley]

I've often wondered why the 16th at Shinnecock isn't more oft used as a par 5 template hole.  While I haven't played the course, it seems the hole is a delight based on what I've seen of pics, TV, and aerials.  Here are some criteria that seem to work with this hole.

1)  Playable and challenging for all skill levels - With the S type configuration, both high capper and scratch have decisions to make on every shot, regardless of how far up the fairway your trying to advance the ball. Its not just a point and shoot kind of affair, but consideration must be given to angles, and how far each shot must go to stay in the short stuff.
2)  As it appears to sit on a relativly flat piece of land, it could be adapted to just about anywhere.
3)  The bunkering on the inside of the mini dog legs could provide doubt and/or blindness so even the best of players have to make sound judgement whether it be thier 1st or 4th shot.
4)  The chipping area behind the green would seem to encourage longer hitters to getting home in 2 and provide relief for one forced to play a long 3rd.
4)   It seems to work for high cappers as well because other than the bunkers/native just short of the green, there are no real forced carries and they can play safe and seemingly still score a bogey or par.
5)  It can be played heroically in several different ways  and adds to the variety of playing it again and again.

Do you know of any examples that have this type of configuration?  The closest thing I can think of is the 4th at BPB.  In conclusion, it seems to be a hole that doesn't seem to be overly difficult to design, yet I really can't think of many others that fit this general mold. Discuss.

Here are some pictures i found and hopefully others can post up a few more:





Here is an aerial which shows the angles a bit better.

[PThomas]

Lefty knows its problems:  wasnt he 5 over or something like that during one of the Opens there??

[Rob Rigg]

Kalen,

I also enjoy the "s" shaped par fives - they tend to be aesthetically pleasing but strategically challenging as angles, bunkers, distances, come in to play.

So many holes tend to move just one way or the other - the S holds all kinds of possiblities.

I cannot think of any others offhand, but there must be a few rattling around out there.

[Michael Ryan]

Paul,

Correct, the 16th hole was the demise of Phil in the '95 Open won by Corey Pavin.  With all the attention yesterday and today with Phil's record setting 5th second place finish, no one is mentioning that he had a fantastic chance at the '95 Open if he had played the 16th better...

In '95, the prevailing breeze blew for most of the championship with the 16th playing into the breeze coming off the ocean.  I stand to be corrected, but on Sunday, Greg Norman had 87 yards left for his third shot and I belive the walking reporter for NBC said it was the closest he had seen anyone after 2 shots all week on 16. 

I remember arriving to the 16th green on Friday morning of the 2004 Open and watching Jay Haas and Fred Funk knock hybrids into the bunker with their second shots...In my opinion, no breeze and technology is what led the USGA to their mishandling of the set up and condition of the course as the week went on...

The 16th is a wonderful golf hole and I think Shinnecock has a par 3, par 4 and par 5 that should serve as "templates" and all are on the back nine....11, 14, and 16 are about as good as it gets.

Mike

[JC Jones]

How far is it to carry the bunker on the right from the tee and likewise, to carry the bunker on the right (by the green) from the second shot?

[Gene Greco]

Kalen:


   The 16th at Shinnecock Hills is a magnificent par 5 and is one of my favorites on that great golf course.

You asked what hole has a similar configuration? That's easy - 16th at Sand Hills. Though at Sand Hills' 16th it is not straight away.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sand Hills has the best par fives on the planet, and it's not even close.

The angles on 16 at Shinnecock are great.

The angles on all three of the par fives at Sand Hills are mind-blowing.

[Kalen Braley]

Guys,

Thanks for the input so far...I think its very much a hole worth discussing.

To carry the bunkers on the right from what looks to be the back tee is 250'ish.  Assuming you can poke one out there 280 with roll, its another 250 to carry to the front of the green.

[JC Jones]

So for the average low handicapper that can hit it well, the "s" or snake aspect of the par 5 really isnt in play.

for the high handicapper or short hitter, you basically play left of the big bunker off the tee.  then right of the bunker patch on the left for your second shot and then to the green.

Im not sure that the hole provides many options.  It seems that you basically have 2 options depending on how far you hit the ball.  Pretty one dimensional. 

maybe im missing something.

[Kalen Braley]

Gene,

I'm guessing your refering to this hole...I can see the similarities.

[Gene Greco]

  kalen:

     Yes, that's the one.

If you look closely at the aerial you can see one tiny little pot bunker at the inside of the last bend. You'd be amazed at the amount of action that bunker sees!

[Ed Oden]

The 16th at Shinnecock is my favorite par 5.  Here are a couple of pics to add to those already posted:





Mike Cirba, the par 5s at Sand Hills are indeed terrific.  But I don't quite see how they are the best on the planet by far.  What angles on #1 at Sand Hills are "mind-blowing"?  That's no slight against #1 or Sand Hills in general, which is everything advertised and then some.  But I don't view the par 5s as the strength of the course.  In my opinion, that honor rests with in the par 4s. 

As for similar serpentining par 5s, I'll nominate #8 at Ballyneal...



14th at Friars Head may be even better.

Ed

[Kyle Henderson]

Does anyone else see think this hole looks like something Mike Strantz would produce (e.g MPCC Shore #s 1 and 6)?

[Charlie Goerges]

How about BPB #4

[Kalen Braley]

Guys,

Thanks for the input so far and the additional photos of #16.

Kyle,

Interesting you should mention Stranz.  The 6th at MPCC Shore does have some similarities for sure.  For those who have played other Stranz courses, does 16 at Shinny remind you of his work?

Charlie,

Thanks for posting that pic of #4 at BPB...I've always loved the look of this hole and think it'd be a blast to play.

[Kalen Braley]

So for the average low handicapper that can hit it well, the "s" or snake aspect of the par 5 really isnt in play.

for the high handicapper or short hitter, you basically play left of the big bunker off the tee.  then right of the bunker patch on the left for your second shot and then to the green.

Im not sure that the hole provides many options.  It seems that you basically have 2 options depending on how far you hit the ball.  Pretty one dimensional. 

maybe im missing something.

JC,

I think the S aspects are in play even for the big boys....just ask Phil as this hole gave him fits in the 04 Open. Even if a bigger hitter can hit it over that bunker on the right they will still have to worry about the next bunker on the right for the lay up.  Ditto all the green side bunkers if they are going for it.

As for the high cappers, I think this is a perfect hole for them to practice those heroic shots.  Cause after all, high cappers don't want to be high cappers forever.  So perhaps for them challenging the 2nd set of huge cluster of bunkers on the left for thier 2nd shot would likely give them a huge thrill.  But more so for the high cappers, almost every one of those bunkers has a chance to be a cross bunker depening on where they hit thier previous shot.  I would not call that one dimensional at all.  One dimensional to me is a straight away par 5 that asks the player to do little esle except advance the ball down the fairway as far as possible without thought.

[JC Jones]

So for the average low handicapper that can hit it well, the "s" or snake aspect of the par 5 really isnt in play.

for the high handicapper or short hitter, you basically play left of the big bunker off the tee.  then right of the bunker patch on the left for your second shot and then to the green.

Im not sure that the hole provides many options.  It seems that you basically have 2 options depending on how far you hit the ball.  Pretty one dimensional. 

maybe im missing something.

JC,

I think the S aspects are in play even for the big boys....just ask Phil as this hole gave him fits in the 04 Open. Even if a bigger hitter can hit it over that bunker on the right they will still have to worry about the next bunker on the right for the lay up.  Ditto all the green side bunkers if they are going for it.

As for the high cappers, I think this is a perfect hole for them to practice those heroic shots.  Cause after all, high cappers don't want to be high cappers forever.  So perhaps for them challenging the 2nd set of huge cluster of bunkers on the left for thier 2nd shot would likely give them a huge thrill.  But more so for the high cappers, almost everyone of those bunkers has a chance to be a cross bunker depening on where they hit thier previous shot.  I would not call that one dimensional at all.  One dimensional to me is a straight away par 5 that asks the player to do little esle except advance the ball down the fairway as much as possible without thought.

fair enough, thanks for the response.

[jkinney]

A description of Pavin's play of the 16th on Sunday during the '95 Open is illustrative of the greatness of this marvelous par five.
Corey had just birdied the 15th to go -1 and take the lead after 69 holes. On the then new Open tee box on 16, he made a decision that he would repeat on the 18th tee. He hit a low cut driver into the wind, probably choked down and aimed at the right side fairway bunker.The big hitters were taking their drives down the left side, but Pavin didn't want to chance not carrying the fall away to the left diagonal bunker complex fronting the left side. His drive was perfect, stopping a few yards short of the bunker and giving him a near perfect angle of attack for the second shot. This was a knock down draw four wood, again that he would repeat on the 72nd hole most famously. His shot on 16 followed perfectly the left turning fairway as it meandered around the fearsome, knee deep
fescue surrounded left side fairway bunker complex. As he saw its ball flight, he pumped his fist. It stopped center fairway about 125 yds. form the ffront hole placement. He was on the upslope and so knocked down a little seven iron about 15' hole high. The curling putt slid by the edge, and he tapped in for par.

So two shots on 16 set up the same shots on 18. Left off the Open tee box on 18 is death because the uncut fescue short of and around the first left fairway bunker complex is downwind of the SW trades and so gets watered somewhat. Fearsome thick it is. Lateral SW out is all one dares hit. So Corey took about ten practice swings on the tee while waiting for the group in front to clear. Those swings were clearly the same employed when he drove off 16. Again he pulled it off, leaving himself that historic 228 yd. four wood to 5'. Interestingly, he did ask his caddy in the fairway if he could get home with a 2 iron. The caddy just chuckled and handed him the four wood again. That shot was aimed at the caretaker's house on the hill above the 18th green, a good 40 yards right of the
the hole location. The SW trade and his hook spin brought the ball along the right to left bend of the fairway and over the edge of the final left side fairway bunker complex. It was simply the greatest shot I've ever seen. He knew he could do it. he just had - on the
marvelous 16th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Ryan introduced "A" if not "THE" critical factor, "The Prevailing Wind"

Not all course can enjoy the breezes that # 16 enjoys, thus making # 16 the prototype might not work as well in a different environment

[Wade Whitehead]

A description of Pavin's play of the 16th on Sunday during the '95 Open is illustrative of the greatness of this marvelous par five.
Corey had just birdied the 15th to go -1 and take the lead after 69 holes. On the then new Open tee box on 16, he made a decision that he would repeat on the 18th tee. He hit a low cut driver into the wind, probably choked down and aimed at the right side fairway bunker.The big hitters were taking their drives down the left side, but Pavin didn't want to chance not carrying the fall away to the left diagonal bunker complex fronting the left side. His drive was perfect, stopping a few yards short of the bunker and giving him a near perfect angle of attack for the second shot. This was a knock down draw four wood, again that he would repeat on the 72nd hole most famously. His shot on 16 followed perfectly the left turning fairway as it meandered around the fearsome, knee deep
fescue surrounded left side fairway bunker complex. As he saw its ball flight, he pumped his fist. It stopped center fairway about 125 yds. form the ffront hole placement. He was on the upslope and so knocked down a little seven iron about 15' hole high. The curling putt slid by the edge, and he tapped in for par.

So two shots on 16 set up the same shots on 18. Left off the Open tee box on 18 is death because the uncut fescue short of and around the first left fairway bunker complex is downwind of the SW trades and so gets watered somewhat. Fearsome thick it is. Lateral SW out is all one dares hit. So Corey took about ten practice swings on the tee while waiting for the group in front to clear. Those swings were clearly the same employed when he drove off 16. Again he pulled it off, leaving himself that historic 228 yd. four wood to 5'. Interestingly, he did ask his caddy in the fairway if he could get home with a 2 iron. The caddy just chuckled and handed him the four wood again. That shot was aimed at the caretaker's house on the hill above the 18th green, a good 40 yards right of the
the hole location. The SW trade and his hook spin brought the ball along the right to left bend of the fairway and over the edge of the final left side fairway bunker complex. It was simply the greatest shot I've ever seen. He knew he could do it. he just had - on the
marvelous 16th.

I enjoyed this post very much.

Are there other holes on other courses that permit - but don't necessarily require - a player to essentially practice shots that will be required later, even quickly, as the round progresses?  I wonder if Pavin would agree that the shots on 16 made 18 easier.  I'll bet he would.

WW

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