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Jim Nugent

Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2009, 02:50:13 AM »
I can't imagine two more different "feelings" and "impressions" of the golfing ground than one gets at these two gems, irrespective of the fact that they shared the same designer.

I wonder if any other golf course architect has produced great courses that feel and look so different from each other. 

Also, was this true in the early 1930's, before they started changing ANGC from Mac's design? 

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2009, 07:14:58 AM »
Jim
As Mac's original ANGC had only 22 bunkers on the entire course, I suspect it did look very different than Cypress, which had the natural sand that Mackenzie and Hunter accentuated. I suspect there would be three holes at Cypress that have the same number of bunkers than did the entire 18 at Augusta. By 1932 Mackenzie was into the more 'minimalist' phase of his late career, with Jockey Club, the design for El Boqueron and Bayside all very minimally bunkered, constructed by Wendell Miller in a highly mechanised blitzkrieg construction method. Cypress was built differently to Augusta by a different construction team.

Personally I'd find it hard to go past the 4 par threes at Cypress, but then again I have not seen the ANGC ones in the flesh.

Neil

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 09:05:01 AM »
Neil, excellent insight in that first paragraph.  Thanks.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2009, 10:26:56 AM »
I can't imagine two more different "feelings" and "impressions" of the golfing ground than one gets at these two gems, irrespective of the fact that they shared the same designer.

I wonder if any other golf course architect has produced great courses that feel and look so different from each other. 

Also, was this true in the early 1930's, before they started changing ANGC from Mac's design? 

CBM did Yale after NGLA, and they may be n the same level of "different", IMO.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 02:45:17 PM »
Neil, excellent insight in that first paragraph.  Thanks.

Bogey

Thanks Michael - I take it there is no insight from my second paragraph!!  ;)

Jim Nugent

Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009, 03:52:53 PM »
jkinney, CBM was a consultant at Yale.  But Raynor designed and built the course.  Also, it seems to me that Yale and NGLA are both loaded with templates.  Do they look and play a whole lot different?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 09:46:28 AM »
I have ANGC over CPC 4 to 0 on the par fives and 2.5 to 1.5 on the par 3’s. Now for the two shotters.

The openers: Both mock doglegs with ANGC winning on the brilliance of the internal green contouring and short game interest if one misses.  With the tee now back at ANGC the player is really challenged to carry the ball off the tee, otherwise upon landing it breaks just shy of the crest of the hill.  ANGC +1

Finishing hole;   Both are severe uphill doglegs.  ANGC forces a strategic decision from the tee, is better protected by greenside bunkering and has superior internal green contours.  ANGC +2

Shortest par four:  The 3rd at ANGC and 9th at CPC.  While I know the latter is a GCA darling (I totally agree) the third green at ANGC is so well defended and the player has a decision to make off the tee, particularly when it is up.  Virtually nobody tries to reach the green from the tee, however because of the fabulous green.  Players will spend an inordinate amount of time chipping around this green during practice rounds – a testament to its ability to deflect short irons.  On the other hand, CPC requires a more definitive challenge from the tee and its approach must be well measured distance wise.  I so badly want to call this a push, but I’ll give the nod to the 9th at CPC.  ANGC +1

Long downhill par four:  The 10th at ANGC and 11th at CPC.  The 10th begs the player to bend the ball around the corner for a shorter approach and to avoid a hanging lie hitting into an uphill green.  The 2nd shot at ANGC is visually intimidating while the approach at CPC is straight forward.  ANGC +2

Hole dominated by water:  Strategy has been eliminated off the tee at ANGC’s 11th and along with the 7th this hole suffers the most from alteration.  On the other hand, CPC’s 17th offers quite the puzzle from the tee in terms of both line and distance.  Dynamics are reversed on the approach, however as CPC offers a hit-or-miss proposition while ANGC’s 11th separates the talent from the timid.  I really don’t like the trees in the fairway at CPC’s 17th, but the unparalleled scenery gives it a slight nod.  ANGC +1

The remaining two-shotters are difficult to compare.  In my opinion the 5th, 9th (an awkward hole lacking in aesthetics) and the 14th as a group are superior to  8, 13 and 15 at CPC, my top three among the remaining par fours.  ANGC’s 17th is a push with CPC’s 12th and CPC’s 4th wins handily over the bastardized 7th at ANGC.    The aggregate among these hole is ANGC 3.5 and CPC 1.5.

Finally Tally:  ANGC +3

For All Holes:  ANGC +8

I realize this is a rather dubious approach, but again it not necessarily intended to show that Augusta National Golf Club is superior to Cypress Point Club, but rather to refute the premise that Golf Digest’s selection of Augusta as the top course in America is ludicrous as some here opine.

Bogey
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 09:50:09 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rich Goodale

Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 10:02:59 AM »
Keep up the good work, Bogey.

I've only seen Augusta on TV, but in my visits to CPC (spectating and playing), one thing that stands out (relative to other great courses) are the relatively benign internal green contours.  I doubt if the pros are particularly miffed at being short-sided at CPC, whereas at ANGC it can be a disaster.

I think that "we" disrespect ANGC because it's not like it used to be, even though there are few if any on this site who are old enough to have a clue as to what it "used to be," must less as to whether it was better or worse than what "we" have today.  In fact, what it used to be is now NLE, on the orders of the powers that be, starting with Bob Jones and Cliff Roberts and continuing through today, so let us let it live in history.

Rich

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 10:05:05 AM »
jkinney, CBM was a consultant at Yale.  But Raynor designed and built the course.  Also, it seems to me that Yale and NGLA are both loaded with templates.  Do they look and play a whole lot different?

They look, feel and play very differently. Yale is one of the really heroic parkland courses, as much of a contrast to
the  linksland feel of NGLA as I could imagine. There are template holes on each course, but even they play in contrasting ways. I was just out at Yale last week, walking the ground to see the tree clearing (over 5,000 gone).
It's impressive, and now the great contours of the ground leap into one's vision (see Ran's current course profile).
Yes, Raynor did the bulk of the work at Yale, but one must remember that CBM had many Yalies at NGLA, and I suspect that he was highly involved. Interestingly, they routed 36 holes originally (the map is in the clubhouse). The '29 crash kiboshed that.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2009, 10:10:09 AM »
Rich,

I will have the good fortune to be on the grounds Friday for the first time in 20 years and cannot wait to study the architecture.

"Put 'em Back The Way They Wuz" was just a cute ditty in Li'L Abner.  Otherwise, Pine Valley needs to cut down a few trees to expose those bunkers hidden deep in the forest. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim Nugent

Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 01:04:08 PM »
jkinney, CBM was a consultant at Yale.  But Raynor designed and built the course.  Also, it seems to me that Yale and NGLA are both loaded with templates.  Do they look and play a whole lot different?

They look, feel and play very differently. Yale is one of the really heroic parkland courses, as much of a contrast to
the  linksland feel of NGLA as I could imagine. There are template holes on each course, but even they play in contrasting ways. I was just out at Yale last week, walking the ground to see the tree clearing (over 5,000 gone).
It's impressive, and now the great contours of the ground leap into one's vision (see Ran's current course profile).
Yes, Raynor did the bulk of the work at Yale, but one must remember that CBM had many Yalies at NGLA, and I suspect that he was highly involved. Interestingly, they routed 36 holes originally (the map is in the clubhouse). The '29 crash kiboshed that.

I was thinking that Raynor's death, in 1926 I believe, also put some brakes on the second 18.  CBM had pretty well retired from active designing/building years before.  Without Raynor, who was left to push the project forward?


Mark Bourgeois

Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 01:24:13 PM »
No, it wasn't the crash or Raynor's death. It was the university freaking out over the cost of the first 18 that doomed the second 18.

Mike, your criteria read like a set of principles -- interesting in and of themselves.  "Principles-based" assessments produce a list of favorites, not necessarily "best," which is even better.

Would be interesting to see an efficacy-based approach to rating, but people would really scratch their heads over what came out of that. Such an approach -- used in dog shows! -- would assess a course according to how well it accomplished what it set out to do.

Re ANGC, actually my thoughts are efficacy-based.  Like Rich I judge the "course" more like a TV studio: does it produce exciting Masters?  They could hold the thing on a landfill course and if it produced that excitement, then I would be all for it.

Mark

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 12:07:20 PM »
After spending the day at Augusta Friday, I can only conclude that:

CYPRESS POINT CLUB CANNOT CARRY AUGUSTA'S JOCK.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 01:06:08 PM »
Nor would it want to, I'm sure.

You are right though when it comes to length and size of the manhood it probably doesn't stack up.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Annual Dog Pile On Augusta - A Comparison with Cypress Point Club
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2009, 01:59:48 AM »
After spending the day at Augusta Friday, I can only conclude that:

CYPRESS POINT CLUB CANNOT CARRY AUGUSTA'S JOCK.

Bogey

Mike,
   I'm sure the members of CPC can afford to pay someone to carry Augusta's jock. :)

I'm looking forward to making a return visit to ANGC next year to see a practice round with my son.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.