[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,
Those three or so trees in the middle of that fairway look just like those that are there now don't they   


It's been my limited experience that when trees are exposed to sunlight and provided with water, that they grow over time.  Hence, a sapling in 1934 might be a majestic, towering pine in 2009.


You need to learn how to interpret aerials   


You mean that saplings don't stay that way forever ?
I never knew that.

I said there were always trees on the left but MORE have been added. 


No trees have been added to the left over the last few decades that substantively influence the lines of play.

Maybe you think those there now are all "originals".  It would not surprise me if you did.

I'm sure that replacements have been introduced from time to time.

Mark,

ANGC began planting pine trees in 1934.
It's been a cultural practice from the very begining.

[PThomas]

Kalen, who hit that shot heard round the world??

Paul,

Remind me, what year did Sarazen hit that shot ?

1935 Patrick!

Gene, Horton Smith and Fuzzy are the only 3 players ever to win at AGNC on their first attempt

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
You once again just like to argue for the sake of arguing.  Those "cartons" you keep questioning were not mine, they were Augusta National's representation of those holes at those times.  If you have a problem with them, complain to the members for misrepresenting their golf holes    I've already told you, the real point is the width of the fairway.  That is what has CHANGED the most over the years or maybe you even disagree with that!  Bob made a good point in that a row of trees was taken out on the right for this years tournament adding some much needed width.  At least they are starting to realize that a narrow opening was not the intent of the golf hole. 

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I think you are right, those samplings have really grown 

[JESII]

You certainly are an interesting creature...what exactly is you point?

Do you think the hole should have no trees?

Do you also think the pond should be drained low enough that balls just might find a sandbar if they don't reach the green?

You still have not answered my question about a hole whose more aggressive line has been eliminated due to tree encroachment...

Also, I think you were disingenuous with regards to the narrowest portion of the 15th fairway being right at their ideal driving distance...Tiger was at 197 and Phil 187 to the pin and both were still short of the narrowest portion...

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
You guys are right - the hole is great as it is as are all the trees!  Keep planting 

[JESII]

That's helpful...

You have pretty strong opinions about the hole but have failed to answer some very basic questions that should be the foundations of your opinions...it makes me think you're just preaching the party line that the powers at Augusta have screwed up a Mackenzie gem, and how dare they...

Maybe I'll start with one question...if the hole looked the same today as it did in that picture you just posted how could a player earn an advantage with his drive?

[George Pazin]

It ranked the easist hole on the course with:

4.57 Stroke Average
9 Eagles
135 Birds
122 Pars
24 Bogeys
2 Double Bogeys

It seemed to provide plenty drama today with players trying to make eagles to play catch up. It was also playing downwind today so some big drives were struck with shortish approaches.

Be pretty cool if one of our researchers could find these stats from previous years, to see if the added penalties have really affected play.

[BigEdSC]

To clarify my comments


There's not a pro in the field that would try to squeeze their approach between the pin and pond.

The intelligent play is to hit to the center-center/back of the green.

In addition, the bank was not shaved as it had been in previous years, and, it did rain at night.

**I agree , the pros didn't try to squeeze their approach between the pond and the pin, because they didn't have to.  They sit at the top of the hill, with anything from a 2-iron to a 5-iron and just try to hit it to the center back of the green.  What I was disappointed in was that we had four days of back pins on the green.  I would suppose that one day you have an easy pin, two mediums and one tough pin.  With the front right pin, you were pretty much guaranteed that you would have to hit or putt back toward the pond with your 3rd or 4th shot.  With the four pins that were there, it was pretty much a long par 4.

If you were above the short right hole, there was many a difficult putt to get it close. 

Any putt from above the hole is difficult on that green.
Just ask Phil.

**Ask Phil.  He said was confident in his read until he saw Tiger's ball drift right.  He said he should of hit his original read.

Also watching many a person spin the ball back into the water.


Not this year.
The bank was not shaved.

**The balls didn't spin back into the water because everyone played long to take the pond out of play.

I just didn't see any drama of the ball going into the water, except for maybe Perry's ball today, but that had no chance of going into the water.


You didn't see any drama ?

Everytime someone went for the green there was drama.

Now you're going to complain because PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world executed their approach shots as planned ?

**I'm not complaining.  The pros only executed what they presented with.  I only said that I would of liked to see the front right pin that they used in past tournaments instead of using four back pins.

[mike_malone]

 I can't offer an opinion since I haven't been there and certainly haven't played it in all conditions.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ed Galbavy,

We must have been watching different tournaments.

Wasn't the pin far left on Saturday ?

Do you know how hard it is to get an approach on to that little penisula of the green  ?

Do you know how effectively shallow that green is ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,
Those three or so trees in the middle of that fairway look just like those that are there now don't they    You need to learn how to interpret aerials    I said there were always trees on the left but MORE have been added.  Maybe you think those there now are all "originals".  It would not surprise me if you did.

Mark,

I can assure you, with 100 % certainty, that the trees were in the LEFT side of the fairway in 1999, effectively blocking any attempt to approach the green from the left side of the fairway.

As of 1999, those trees had to be 40 to 50 or more years old, so they weren't introduced recently.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

To clarify my comments


There's not a pro in the field that would try to squeeze their approach between the pin and pond.

The intelligent play is to hit to the center-center/back of the green.

In addition, the bank was not shaved as it had been in previous years, and, it did rain at night.

**I agree , the pros didn't try to squeeze their approach between the pond and the pin, because they didn't have to.  They sit at the top of the hill, with anything from a 2-iron to a 5-iron and just try to hit it to the center back of the green.  What I was disappointed in was that we had four days of back pins on the green. 

That's not true, the pin was far left one day.
That's a very difficult location with little margin for error.

I would suppose that one day you have an easy pin, two mediums and one tough pin.  With the front right pin, you were pretty much guaranteed that you would have to hit or putt back toward the pond with your 3rd or 4th shot.  With the four pins that were there, it was pretty much a long par 4.

Not quite

If you were above the short right hole, there was many a difficult putt to get it close. 

Any putt from above the hole is difficult on that green.
Just ask Phil.

**Ask Phil.  He said was confident in his read until he saw Tiger's ball drift right.  He said he should of hit his original read.

On a 4 foot putt he never came within one inch of the hole.
But, that's not the issue, the issue is how difficult a putt it is from above any hole location.

Also watching many a person spin the ball back into the water.

Not this year.
The bank was not shaved.

**The balls didn't spin back into the water because everyone played long to take the pond out of play.

Nonsense.
Anyone who plays long faces a very difficult recovery to any hole location on that green.

And, with ANY front hole location, they play center to long.
No one tries to squeeze a shot in between a front hole location and the front of the green.  That's a dumb, unrewarding play.

I just didn't see any drama of the ball going into the water, except for maybe Perry's ball today, but that had no chance of going into the water.

You didn't see any drama ?

Everytime someone went for the green there was drama.

Now you're going to complain because PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world executed their approach shots as planned ?

**I'm not complaining.  The pros only executed what they presented with.  I only said that I would of liked to see the front right pin that they used in past tournaments instead of using four back pins.

And I'm telling you that it wouldn't have made any difference.
NO ONE was going to try to squeeze an approach between a front hole location and the front of that green.

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