[Lyne Morrison]

You know Garland, its just a tough hole to be an out of control lefty on - that's just the way it goes sometimes.

I figure that running the hole along the cliff face isn’t so bad as long as the average golfer is provided enough fairway width to execute manageable options. I suspect there may be a good amount of width in the belly of that fairway for you to plan a route.

Meantime the better golfer is challenged and in an exciting way - these golfers typically thrive on such opportunities. It is a spectacular location and there is certainly a good dose of visual intimidation - some golfers will respond to the challenge while others will lay up. The way I see it is that opportunities to respond successfully to a few intense moments on a course are a key part of the game and keep many coming back.

And from what we can see of the area to the right of the hole it doesn’t look so comfortable for golf – rocky, steep, narrow, more exposure to wind, more earthworks – who knows what is going on.

Don't sweat it, play sensibly - there are plenty more golf holes for you to enjoy.

Cheers - Lyne

[Garland Bayley]

...And from what we can see of the area to the right of the hole it doesn’t look so comfortable for golf – rocky, steep, narrow, more exposure to wind, more earthworks – who knows what is going on.

...

Thanks for the evaluation of the alternative. I have to imagine they dealt with rocky in building the hole shown. I also have to wonder if the hole shown was really as flat as it is now to begin with. So I wonder if there is really much more earthworks. Both routings would have wind, so I discount that as a factor. The crux of the matter is the steepness. Can you see a reasonable hole in the alternate area? I think I can see quite a good one, my one worry being would too much earth have to be moved to alleviate the steepness.

You brought new life to this discussion for me finally with the acknowledgement that there might be an alternative hole there. Now if you can shake TEP out of his set ways of thinking, that would be a great accomplishment.

[Lyne Morrison]

Ah Garland - you are determined to find that additional bail out area - well the further right you go the bigger the cut - not so pretty.

I'm off to watch the ladies in the Aussie open now.

Cheers -L

[Rob Rigg]

Garland - it looks like they cut or blew the hole out of the rock - no?

There is no way the natural contour would have been that flat . . .

Anyways, I think that if you don't like this hole they you would have an issue with a lot of classic courses in GBI. You would also have an issue with any course that has OB off the tee because they needed to make use of every inch of the available land.

I think this hole is spectacular - you are teeing off with the edge of the earth on your left side, it is awesome. Ocean side courses make a living off such incredible aesthetics.

Based on that one photo I do not see much of an option to the right side to route the short par 4 differently.

Are you joking about this one? You really like it don't you? Just stirring the pot a bit me thinks?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,

This type of hole has a whole lot going for it.  No one (I think) who's talking about it has played it, yet it's stirred up a wide range of opinions.

Can you imagine how much fun a rightie'd have teeing up some old ball that's been clunking around at the bottom of his bag, then hanging a big curve ball out over the valley floor, and watch it either move back to the fairway or die on the rocks below? That's worth the price of admission all by itself.

I know there'd be no possible way I could resist the urge to hit anything other than a driver the first time I played it.  Without a doubt, its one of those "We didn't come all this way to lay up" holes, yet it looks like it offers a few safer choices for day to day play.

I don't think you'd see too many people getting tired of playing this hole.

 

[Scott Warren]

Is it just me, or does the far left of the fairway look so sloped back to the centre that even if you flirted with the cliff for the best line in, your ball is likely to feed down to in line with the right edge of that greenside trap?

Or even if it stays up there, you'll have the ball a foot below your feet.

I like the look of the hole though, all in all, but I am a "views on golf courses" fan from way back.

[Lyne Morrison]

Garland - after retrieving his tee ball

[Anthony Gray]

To be honest with you and never having been there, just looking at that photo it's definitely not the tee shot that going off the world would concern me it would be going off the world on the approach.

  UNLESS..........You are a lefty with a slice like Garland.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

This hole is like building an OB fence down the edge of a fairway. If I were to find and post such a hole, there would be a high degree of condemnation.- Garland

Perhaps, in some situations, but as this photo shows (Royal dornoch) pounding a ball into the gorse that's hard up against the edge of a hole is no less a penalty than sailing one over a cliff. At least you won't be wasting any time looking for the latter.


A bunker running down the left edge of the fairway would be about a half stroke penalty-Garland

Maybe, but if you are going to keep it apples to apples and use the same 'player' throughout, then this same player is probably not going to have mad bunker skills, so the penalty is likely to be more than a half stroke.

A lateral water hazard and a forest down the edge would double that.-Garland

The water hazard is at least a one shot penalty. The forest could be a half shot if there is no underbrush, a one shot if all you can do is chip out, and a two shotter if you can't find the ball.

OB and unplayable cliffs down the edge doubles that.-Garland

They're no worse than the gorse or the trees, or possibly no worse than  the result of the player with the poor bunker skills as he fumbles around in the sand.

  The photo is of a par 3

  Anthony

[Joe Hancock]

EDIT: Point was already made.......

[Anthony Gray]

You know Garland, its just a tough hole to be an out of control lefty on - that's just the way it goes sometimes.

I figure that running the hole along the cliff face isn’t so bad as long as the average golfer is provided enough fairway width to execute manageable options. I suspect there may be a good amount of width in the belly of that fairway for you to plan a route.

Meantime the better golfer is challenged and in an exciting way - these golfers typically thrive on such opportunities. It is a spectacular location and there is certainly a good dose of visual intimidation - some golfers will respond to the challenge while others will lay up. The way I see it is that opportunities to respond successfully to a few intense moments on a course are a key part of the game and keep many coming back.

And from what we can see of the area to the right of the hole it doesn’t look so comfortable for golf – rocky, steep, narrow, more exposure to wind, more earthworks – who knows what is going on.

Don't sweat it, play sensibly - there are plenty more golf holes for you to enjoy.

Cheers - Lyne

  Lyne,

  I can see you have not posted much. Garland is a good friend of mine. And for you to refer to him as an "out of control lefty"......well I find it very.................















...................................................................................................correct

  Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

Just a few things of note after reading this thread.

1)  I don't think this hole is in the least bit comparable to CPC 16 or 17.  For one 16 is a par 3, this is a par 4.  17's strategies are very different than the ones found on this hole.

2)  As the hole is only 320 yards, if the tee shot is that intimidating, then just hit 7 iron, wedge, and a chip to the green.  If one can't hit decent shots with those clubs in hand, then maybe this is not the course for you, or any other course for that matter. A really easy way to make 5 is presented and I doubt any high capper would be disappointed with a bogey on any hole.

3)  The fairway appears to be amply wide for such a short hole and yet pinched in enough at the green to give both the high cappers a chance with thier tee shot, and equally challenge the best players who are going for the green in 1.

4)  Having been to this part of the state several times and within a few miles of this new course, I can tell you the views are indeed sublime.  From this cliff edge, one gets a terrific view of the entire St. George valley.  Even MacK said maximizing views is a very noteworthy goal in course design.

[Brian Laurent]

Brian,

This is nothing like #16 at CPC. #16 at CPC is choose to bite off as much as you think appropriate to carry from a perfect lie. A shot hit off line is not guaranteed death.

This hole is like building an OB fence down the edge of a fairway. If I were to find and post such a hole, there would be a high degree of condemnation. A bunker running down the left edge of the fairway would be about a half stroke penalty. A lateral water hazard and a forest down the edge would double that. OB and unplayable cliffs down the edge doubles that.

I get what you're saying and agree it's nothing like 16 at Cypress.  From the images, and from the point of view of an average golfer, I'll stick with my opinion that this and 17 at CPC have similar playing qualities (exception of one being OB, the other a hazard).  Average golfers point of view:

Holy sh*t, don't hit it left!


Hoy sh*t, don't hit it right!


For everyday play, do they keep the cliff as OB or do they have a local rule in place designating it as a hazard?  For pace of play, it would make sense. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
A portion of the photo shows the par 3, but see the players walking along the fairway that sits between the ocean and the gorse?

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,
A portion of the photo shows the par 3, but see the players walking along the fairway that sits between the ocean and the gorse?

Having never been there, I'm not sure, but I think that's #6 and #7. I assumed Jim was referring to #7.

Maybe sometime I will struggle with Sketchup again and try to present the alternate hole I see at the Utah course.

And Lyne, you can't fool me. You will be glued to the SBS Open later today from Hawaii.

[Garland Bayley]

Having not been there, I can't be sure, but CPC #17 looks to offer much more room for the directionally challenged to miss the hazard.

[Norbert P]

"Why is this not a bad choice for laying out a golf hole? "

Because it has "splendid exposure".
 It looks like a dramatic hole and I like the color of the sand in the bunkers, though the bunkers seem a little too smooth for such a rugged environment.

I've been wanting to get down to the St. George area for years. Definitely looks like it wouldn't disappoint a travelling golfer.  Does peyote grow in them that hills?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
A portion of the photo shows the par 3, but see the players walking along the fairway that sits between the ocean and the gorse?

  Jim,

  I'm sorry. I misread you post. The par 4 coming back does have hazards on both sides.

   Anthony

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()