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Mark_F

Brian,

I don't know that you would need more bunkers, I was just putting in my two cents that I don't think they necessarily have that great a visual impact, which can have a large effect on a hole.

For instance, the 16th hole on my home course has a grotesquely (to me) shapen bunker on the left that is the downfall of the hole. Others don't mind it.  But, nearly everyone I know of who plays it thinks the hole doesn't quite fit somehow.  Maybe it is the bunker, maybe it is, as another member of this site and club member says, four or five stray bushes and plants that don't belong.  Maybe it is both?

But that's all right, both Tom and yourself have put in your two cents.

As Ed intimated above, we Aussies rightfully regard a green fee over $50 a hanging offence, that's all. :)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
On to #7 par  4. We  turn away from the water and go back inland for two holes now. This was one of my favorite holes on the course. You stand on the tee and it is very visually intimidating due to  the semiblind nature of the tee shot. You can see fairway, but not enough to feel really comfortable on the tee. The reality is there is quite a bit of fairway out there and after hitting a decent tee shot on a hole that plays downhill for the drive I had a pitching wedge in. I only point this out because when you are standing on the tee and know  how long the hole is you feel like you need to get a long drive out there. I wasn't driving great so I hit 3W mostly due to the fact  that I felt like I just needed to get the ball in play first and foremost. I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to pick the right club for the pronounced downhill shot to a front pin. Given the steep slope in front of the green you know you have to fly it there so it is not just a matter of hitting it down there and letting it feed in.
   I assume from the name of the hole "14 flags" that you can see that  many from the  tee if you look around.
   #8 par 3 Yet another daunting par 3. Mid-iron to a green tilted toward you pretty severely. With the ravine in front you are cognizant of not wanting to come up short, so you are more likely to end up like me and be long, which requires a very deft touch to get up and down. Another hole with a bailout that you don't really see from the tee which I think was a really good idea given the winds this place can get. There is almost always somewhere to hit the ball that can keep a big  number out of play.
    #9  A nice midlength par 4 that lets you breathe a little. It still has the intimidating forced carry, but you can see some fairway as it rises up and over. This hole is a good example of how the bailout is right up at the green, but with the green sloping away  from you it would  be very challenging to make par from over there. A really big green with a couple of well-integrated  tiers so it is not enough to just knock it  on the green.
  Take a well-earned break here at the turn and fuel up for the back nine challenge.
   #10 par 4  A long hole that gently sweeps from right to left as you head toward the water. The usual forced carry (to be expected given the severity of the property) which must be tough into a significant wind. I loved the way the approach sweeps down to the hole.
   
 
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
#11 par 3   Out at the end of one of the fingers of land. Another daunting par 3! Missing left is oblivion, but bailing right is no picnic with bunkering and a sort of swale on that side. There is bunkering short right, so theoretically you could try to land short left, but between the carry off the tee and the calamity of a miss left, there is really only one option, on the green. There is some nice internal movement in this green if I remember correctly. We had a back right pin.
    #12 par  4   I don't really remember this hole, even after  looking in the yardage book.  It looks interesting with the way it moves right to left. There is an interesting swale short of the green, but I don't remember if it affected the hole.
   #13 par 3. Another testy par 3 (the constant theme of the trip). It was tough to club for this one and  the target looks so narrow, but there is more  room than it appears and you can miss short and be fine if you are on line. Missing the green requires some short game skills.
   #14 a great short par 4 with seemingly any conceivable shot being a challenge. I don't know if there is somewhere you can be and feel comfortable on this hole. The fronting bunker commands absolute  respect for any approach shot. Even when the pin is over on the right side of the green, there is a dropoff right of the green, so you would like to fudge left a little to be safe, but that darn bunker is in  just the perfect place to add anxiety to the approach shot.
   #15 par 5   A long par 5  (600 yards from our tee) that makes you feel like you need to hit driver off the tee. In hindsight, unless I turn in to  Fred Funk I think I would play long to mid-irons until the final approach shot where you feel like there is some room to work with. The RGD team was nice enough to put some bunkers down near the green on the periphery to save wayward approach shots from plunging to their death over the cliffs. :) Not a favorite  hole for me, but it certainly tests your ability to keep  your ball in play and think your way along the gangplank.
   Now the course  turns away from the water and heads home. But not before you hit a golf ball off the tee out into the ocean and watch it hang in air seemingly forever before splashing down to a watery grave.
   #16 par 5  I found this hole much more interesting than the previous one. Well placed bunkering forces you to move around on every shot to try to get yourself in position to attack. The approach is  uphill to a green that is well-protected short right by sand,  and the internal movement of the green keeps the test going until the ball is holed. I think the bunkering short left (about 50 yards) is some of the best-placed on the course. A really good hole IMO.
    #17 par 4   A quintessential finishing hole, only it comes one hole too early. A VERY stout par 4 that requires two excellent shots to get home in two (437 yards from our tees). A dogleg right that plays  primarily uphill to the green. Well-designed for the thinking golfer with some fairway out to the right for those inclined to play it as a "par 5". Given the length of the hole and the way it turns right, one is inclined to try to play down the right, but that tack  is fraught with disaster, as there is thick grass down in the hollow and the approach is blind if you miss the fairway right.
    #18 par 4   An odd driving hole with a hogsback type ridge of fairway set on a bit  of a diagonal to you on the tee (from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock). If you negotiate the tee shot, then  you have an approach into a bit of an elongated punchbowl type green. The miss right will end up in sand or grass that can be played from, shots played to the left will feed down off the slopes and onto the green, although due to the length of the green you may not be near the pin due to the elongated nature of the green. A good test to finish with, but feels quite a bit different than the rest of the course. I think that is the main reason for the general dislike I have heard of this hole. I think the gripe is the randomness  of the result off the slopes down into the green.
   All in all an outstanding course IMO. I am not very good at envisioning routings, I tend to think the way I see a lot of courses is the best possible routing. However, given the nature of the land at CK I really can't imagine any way the routing could be improved upon
   I give this course an 8 on the Doak scale. I could see going even higher, but there is so much to figure out over multiple plays that I feel this is an appropriate starting point. I think one of the great things about CK is that it isn't all obvious with the one play. However, I suppose once you get past the visual intimidation perhaps the course doesn't  hold up as well. My sense is that the course would rise in the estimation of most golfers after multiple plays. I think you would need to see the course in the more common winds they have there to make a balanced assessment. The potential for losing 4+ balls in the  course of a round is a bit of a detractor also. All in all an overpriced round of golf, but I think the experience of the total package will take away most of the sting to your wallet. My understanding is the lodge and dining will be up and running in November, which should help considerably with the exposure of the target market.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 06:05:43 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
With regards  to the bunkering, from pictures  before the trip it looked kind of understated and an afterthought. After  seeing it in person and how well it fits into the topography I think it was absolutely fitting to its setting. Some of those bunkers are so deep that the word hazard definitely comes to mind. The course certainly didn't need any more bunkering as the terrain provided plenty of hazards on its own, combined with the movement of the ground the RGD team struck a great balance. If you study the yardage book you can see that many of the bunkers are there to help you keep your ball in play.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Brian P.:  Thanks for speculating on my behalf, but there is no rock to run into at Cape Kidnappers, that's why those ravines have eroded so deeply!  I just didn't think the course needed any more bunkers, even when the client asked for more.  (And I have never heard someone come off the course and complain about the lack of bunkering.)

Ed:  I can't believe you can't remember the 12th hole which is one of my favorite holes ever ... though it doesn't have a bunker.  That's the par 4 doglegging a bit to the left playing downhill, with the second shot along a ridge out toward the deep blue sea.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,
  My first response disappeared into cyberspace. Don't interpret my lack of memory as a reflection on the quality of the hole. What are the attributes of this hole that makes it one of your favorites?
   Do approach shots tend to run through this green? I seem to  remember runnning up a shot from behind the green and making a putt for par.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Ed:

Yes, that green runs away from the line of play at 2-3 percent.  The green site actually ran away at 6 percent, and to lower the front of the green to reduce the slope, we also had to lower the last fifty yards in front of the green to make it tie in correctly.

I love the hole because it's a scary second shot ... looks like there is nothing but ocean behind the green (even though the 13th tee is back there) and you can see very clearly that you're dead if you pull the approach left and down the slope.

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed,

Here are some pics of the 12th to refresh your memory (which is pretty darn good considering you only played it once!).

The tee shot is the most open on the course with heaps of room to put your ball in play.  Having said that, it is still quite difficult to find a line of play because all you see is horizon.
 


Then the real fun begins as it looks as if a long second shot will fall off the edge of the planet.  The 1st-timer does not know that the 13th tee sits down and behind the green, offering plenty of room.

I find that the real difficulty of the second shot is convincing yourself to take the aerial route.  It looks tailor-made for a bump and run but there is a narrow neck that connects the fairway to the green and any ground shot that does not navigate the middle of this neck fars away hard left or right.






ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Scott,
   Thanks for the refresher. I sure hope we get a chance to do that again in the future.  Say hi to the guys for me, they sure were a lot  of  fun to golf with.

Tom,
    Thanks for the info. Scott's pix helped a lot. It is a pretty good  hole isn't it?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 08:52:43 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
   On to Titirangi. This Mackenzie-routed gem was the unexpected surprise of the NZ leg of the trip. Fantastic land and a wonderful routing that seems to take advantage of all the physical features of the ground. The only let down were the greens. They had some slope to them, but not too much internal contour. I think if one of the architects favored on this site were to get the commission to redo the greens at Titirangi, I am quite sure it would be regarded as one of the best courses in the world. Except by the length snobs of course. ;) It plays 6030 meters from the back (add 10% of that to get yards).
   The course starts right out with an interesting opening par 4. It is a short par 4 that plays straightaway. 282 meters, but the land rises up just enough in front of the tee that you can't see the green. I think after the first time around you would feel quite comfortable picking the proper line and driving aggressively.
  #2 par 4   One of my favorite holes on the course. The hole slides right on its way up to green. I loved how the natural terrain drops down in front of the fairway and then the depression continues up the right side. The fairway is sitting on a bit of a diagonal to the tee (from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock). The cool thing about the depression is that they maintain it fairway height so your ball can roll down in there, but you can still play a shot, albeit a blind approach because it is pretty deep. There are bunkers all down the left side so the hole really wants you to hit a nice fade out there off the tee (for righties that is). For those that don't like vertical hazards, you wouldn't like this hole with the big tree guarding the right front of the green. The green sort of wraps around a middle left bunker, so there is a tough pin position when tucked back left.
   #3 par 4   This hole plays a bit longer than you expect, trees all down the right, and a well-placed bunker  protecting the left fairway landing area gives you something to think about off the tee. From the fairway the hole rises up pretty considerably to the green which probably has the most slope of any green on the course. Green is protected front left and given the upslope to the green you have to fly the ball up there. You can miss short right and have an relatively easy up and down as you would be chipping right up the slope of the green.
    As I mentioned before, redo these greens and this place would be amazing. More later.
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
#4 par 3 This hole mainly gets you down from some high ground. Well-guarded  with flanking bunkering, but otherwise unremarkable.
   #5 par 5(normally) There was a hole out of play while we were there, so #5 was broken up into a par 4 and a par 3.

This reminds me  of  what a great job they do Down Under with temporary green situations. A lot of courses seem to have a green that can be put into play when a hole is out of commission. Much better than the usual mown fairways we see in the US in this situation. On the other hand you have to wonder if perhaps they tinker too much with their courses if they have a backup hole worked into the property.

Anyway, back to #5. The hole gently moves right as it goes along. The tee shot is interesting with the flanking bunkering that is staggered in such a way that it appears like the landing area is more constricted than it really is.  Up at the green the really long green is protected down the right  side by bunkering, so on your second if you don't think you can reach you would want to fudge left to have a good angle into the green if you come up short. Of course, there is a bunker perfectly placed on the left side about 60 meters out to catch those bailout shots.

#6 par 4  was the hole out of play for our round. It looks to be an interesting test with essentially a straightaway  drive and then the hole turns about 90 degrees left and goes uphill a few stories. The green has a pretty  routine tier running across that splits the green from front to back.

#7 par 3 A long par 3 that plays slightly uphill to a 3 tier green (the straight across boring type of tiers). The green drops off quite steeply in front so you have to carry  your ball to the proper level. The green is effectively set on a diagonal from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock, which makes the target look even smaller.

#8 par 4  A shortish par 4 that doesn't work too well because it is virtually impossible to get to the green if you wanted to gamble.  With water left (it appears they took a bit of a creek and turned it into a pond a la U.S.-style water feature, and a big deep bunker right you have a daunting shot  even with a short iron in your hand.  I can't imagine anyone tries to drive this  hole. This hole has one of the more interesting greens on the course with good internal movement that makes getting up and down a challenge (don't ask me how I know). ;)

#9 par 4  A pretty routine dogleg right hole with a bunker inside the turn. The green is guarded on the right by bunkering and on the left by contours/hollows in the Pinehurst vein (although your ball won't roll so far away as the grass is deeper). A pretty good green here also with some testing  pin positions.

#10 par 4 Straight hole with rising ground in front with the landing area being down in a swale for mortals. The green rises up pretty abruptly above the fairway and is guarded right by some bunkering. A long narrow green completes the test.

#11 par 3  Named Redan which is incorrect, but nevertheless it is a really excellent par 3. The green is set up shallow to you like a redan, but  the green doesn't work away from you like a redan, and you can't run through the back either as  there is a grassy bank at the back. Deep large bunkers guard the front, so you really need to play a quality golf shot.

#12 A long par 4 that moves gently  left. There is some nice movement of the  land in the fairway and landing area. The fairway narrows as you get up near the green so par is well-earned on this hole. Another deep green.

#13 par 5 A short par 5 (468 meters), but enough interesting problems to keep you on your toes all the way. Off the tee you feel pretty constricted by the trees on either side and the land rises up so the fairway is pretty much blind.There is a forced carry that you  would be happy to do without given the feel of trying to thread a needle as it is. It turns out there is much more room out in the fairway than it appears from the tee. For your second you have to decide  whether to go for the green in two or not. If you do you have to decide how to get around the tall tree that is pretty much in the middle of your  line. Fortunately the tree is far enough back from the green (about 140 meters) that it isn't too hard to get around. The green and second shot landing area are well protected by sand so laying up and going for it are both pretty challenging.  The green is set on a diagonal to the line of play for  your second shot (going from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock) so the hole is effectively a double dogleg. A really good testing hole. I would cut down the tree as it doesn't really add to the strategic interest of the hole.

#13 par 3  A heaving sea of a green is at the end of the forced carry  on this testing par 3. One of the most interesting greens on the course, but it feels a little strange as it is SO different than all the other greens on the course. Green is flanked by deep bunkers. The daunting word again.

"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
#15 par 4 A mid-length par 4 that doglegs left after the slightly uphill forced carry to the fairway.
Green is well-protected by flanking bunkers and there are some good testing pin positions on this green.

#16 par 4 A semi-blind driving hole with a bit of a carry over a tree-filled depression. There are a few places on this course that would benefit from tree removal. A shallow green that is guarded in front  by a steep fall off (about 6 feet), coupled with bunkering at the back and left making an  accurate approach a necessity.

#17   A long par 4 (425 meters) that plays straightaway and requires two long shots to get home. Otherwise a pretty uneventful hole.

#18 par 4 Mid-length par 4 dogleg left, with downhill tee shot and uphill approach. Fairway and green are well-protected by flanking bunkering, then approaching up to a green that is pitched pretty steeply from back to  front.

A wonderful piece of land with a number of interesting holes. On the Doak scale I would give a 7.

"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
My last round was at Auckland GC. A very pleasant place to play golf and had more interesting holes than I expected from Ash's description. A pretty good challenge and there were even a couple of interesting greens that Peter Thomson had reworked. Mr. Thomson course was pretty consistently reviled during my travels down there. The greens he did for Auckland were pretty dramatically different than the other greens, so his work didn't fit with the rest, but I did enjoy the challenge those greens provided.
   I'll rely on Ash to fill in what he thinks the better holes are. I don't remember too many specifics. There was a short par 4 on the back nine (#11?) that I really liked, if you could describe it Ash.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
These are the holes that stand out to me, Ed may differ.
No 3 Mid to long par 4.  The fairway is angled to the left and then straightens.  Bunkers on the right produce a risk/reward tee shot.  There is a narrow entrance to the green protected by a bunker to the right.  The green has 2 distinct levels.

Hole 5  Long par 4.  You have to drive straight for 200 metres of the back tee.  There is a hazard which follows the hole on the right side.  At 200 metres the hole doglegs sharply to the right and is well protected.

Hole 10  Par 3  90 metres approx.  Very narrow green surruonded by bunkers.  If you get in one, it is no guarantee you can hold the green unless you play an excellent shot.

Hole 11 This is indeed the hole Ed is referring to.  Driveable par 4 with the green almost set at right angles to the fairway.  Infront of the right 3/4 of the green is a steep little valley.  There is out of bounds to the right.  If you drive slightly left of the green the contour can bring round and maybe onto the green.  A really fun hole.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hole 17  Very long par 4 slightly left to right with a big swale in front.  I think Ed described it as a branca.  I will stand corrected.  Accurate tee shot needed and an equally good second.

Hole 18 THe drive is angled to the left.  There are a number of bunkers and an outward bound to the right.  If you do go right and avoid the trouble you are faced with a difficult approach to the green due to a bunker on the right side and the 45 degree angle of the green.  Hit a straight or a slight draw then the second shot is relatively straight forward.  There has been many a good round lost here.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed- I hope this fits the bill.  The other holes are not far behind.  It is a strong test particularly with the extra added length.  This course has been host to many a New Zealand Open.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ash,
    Thanks for filling in my memory blanks. The term you used for the depression is spelled barranca.
   What are your thoughts on the Thomson reworked greens?
See you in a few months. :)

On the Doak scale I would give a 6.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ed,
Thanks for the correct spelling.
The Thomson greens certainley provided more interest when you were on them.  Counter to that view is that some good second shots would bounce off the green and other poorer shots got lucky and ended up near the pin.   So it depends on how fair you want them.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Zealand '07 Paraparaumu, Cape Kidnappers, Titirangi, and Auckland GC
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2008, 12:11:47 PM »
bump
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Zealand '07 Paraparaumu, Cape Kidnappers, Titirangi, and Auckland GC
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2008, 08:56:32 PM »
If as Ed has said many people are considering coming this way and want to play an interesting new course then I suggest Kinloch, near Taupo.  Other courses worthy are on this and other threads.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Zealand '07 Paraparaumu, Cape Kidnappers, Titirangi, and Auckland GC
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2008, 10:10:42 PM »
bump for Kenny Baer
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

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