[David_Tepper]

Anthony Grey et al. -

It is hard to imagine a course with more canted/sloped fairways than the Olympic Club Lake Course in San Francisco.

Maybe there are courses built in the mountains with more challenging fairways, but it would be hard to think of one at sea level.

DT   

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Great topic... we're in the process of renovating one of our golf courses, and one of the things that makes the course interesting is the slope in the fairways.  I'm concerned that the renovation architect will eliminate many of those features for the sake of "playability".

[Matt OBrien]

KEEP THEM...I think it adds character to the course and not may courses have this feature

[Tim Gavrich]

The only new course that I really associate with canted fairways would be Wintonbury Hills.

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And for old courses, the Cascades is a pretty good example.

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[Jay Flemma]

I was writing something for television once, and was in the room with the network executives for a rough-cut screening. They liked the program well enough, but wanted me to change a bit of voice-over that I particularly liked and thought quite good. They said, "We think it's great, but the people out there won't get it".  And before I could stop myself, I said "No - it's YOU who doesn't get it, and you're using this imaginary 'audience' as an excuse".   (I was young and foolish).

Peter as a contracts lawyer for TV I have had similar arguments.  Only because I'm the lawyer they have to at least consider my opinion.  Out of curiosity what did they do to you to make you feel young and foolish?

Illegitum non carborundum...and if they can't take a joke...screw 'em.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for the pics and insights, gents.

Ian - you said "That's Huntingdon Valley golf to me - pressure golf without involving yardage."  That's just it, interest and challenge "without adding yardage" -- so it works for both the long and short hitter. And as Jim mentions, the shot-demands (draws/fades off the tee; playing for fades and draws on the approach) mimic the impact of wind on non-windy sites. It seems all good. I still don't understand what the reluctance is based on - I believe the "average golfer" (me) would like to see the canted/sloped fairway used more. But maybe I'm just flat out wrong about that.

Jay - No, THEY didn't do anything. It's ME who looks back now and feels young and foolish. I lost my temper, I didn't pick my battle very well (after all, asking me to change ONE line of voice-over out of FORTY probably wasn't asking too much), and I was too quick to criticize the client. A little too much ego, I think Jay.  In the end, the v-o line stayed pretty much the same, and I did more work for the same clients in the years to come -- but I damaged the relationship that day in ways that couldn't be repaired (or at least I couldn't). Working professionals deal with those things better than that - probably one of the reasons I'm no longer a working professional... 

[paul cowley]

Peter....good thread.

I use them quite often as one of my strategic design options.

Where they exist naturally they are great to help narrow the preferred drive areas and lessen the need for a bunker....which is always good.
They can be very effective to set up risk/reward strategies....and helpful as a directional and distance boost if that's part of the storyline of the hole.

I've also become fond of creating the occasional non Redan steeply canted greens complex.
I love seeing a ball move in a purposeful direction across a surface.

I also rely on them in extremely flat topography to encourage long sheet flow drainage across manufactured slopes.....as opposed to relying on multiple small catch basin watersheds doting the landing areas.

[BCrosby]

Tom D -

Interesting about fw's not being graded until the the late '70's. I assume that had to do with fast running, low cut fw turf that came into vogue at the time.

That confirms a remark that Bobby Jones once made. He said that the big change in course maintenance practices from the time when he played was not green speeds, but the heights at which they were cutting fws.

Peter -

A big reason the par 4 6th at Seminole is so highly thought of is the left to right cant of the fw. You appreciate the significance of the fw cant immediately at the tee, but photos don't capture it very well. I assume that cant was a big part of why it was one of Hogan's favorite holes.

Bob  

[Mike Mosely]

Peter....good thread.

I use them quite often as one of my strategic design options.

Where they exist naturally they are great to help narrow the preferred drive areas and lessen the need for a bunker....which is always good.
They can be very effective to set up risk/reward strategies....and helpful as a directional and distance boost if that's part of the storyline of the hole.

I've also become fond of creating the occasional non Redan steeply canted greens complex.
I love seeing a ball move in a purposeful direction across a surface.

I also rely on them in extremely flat topography to encourage long sheet flow drainage across manufactured slopes.....as opposed to relying on multiple small catch basin watersheds doting the landing areas.

Good stuff Paul, now you have me excited to see one of your courses.  Where did you do this?  Ricefields perhaps? Any pix?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom D -

Interesting about fw's not being graded until the the late '70's. I assume that had to do with fast running, low cut fw turf that came into vogue at the time.

That confirms a remark that Bobby Jones once made. He said that the big change in course maintenance practices from the time when he played was not green speeds, but the heights at which they were cutting fws.

Bob  

Bob, that is true.  I think Cherry Hills 18 highlighted it for us in the modern era, but its an ongoing trend of lower cuts, just like greens.  And, just like greens, fw are getting flatter, at least where courses use grasses that allow roll, like bent.

I like a canted fw and have several, but they are tuned to grass types (low mow blue can still be around 10% in spots) topo (an uphill fw can have more cross slope than a downhill one)  I am not sure that I wouldn't at least consider that its good design to keep a ball in the fw, at least if hit to the high side.  I mean, if I rope a tee shot to just inside the high side of the fw and end up in the right rough anyway, I may as well aim for the right rough and there is no strategy. Now, it could be that the area where you can stay in the fw isn't a full drive and that would create both left to right and distance strategy that would, IMHO, be quite fun.

[JESII]

A big reason the par 4 6th at Seminole is so highly thought of is the left to right cant of the fw. You appreciate the significance of the fw cant immediately at the tee, but photos don't capture it very well. I assume that cant was a big part of why it was one of Hogan's favorite holes.

Bob  

I wonder if it was something like that, or as simple as the same reason most of us like or dislike a particular hole...I bet he could stand down in that fairway and cut a 6 iron up into the green about 10 times as successfully as the guys he might have been playing against in those spring training warmup games...

[JNC Lyon]

A big reason the par 4 6th at Seminole is so highly thought of is the left to right cant of the fw. You appreciate the significance of the fw cant immediately at the tee, but photos don't capture it very well. I assume that cant was a big part of why it was one of Hogan's favorite holes.

Bob  

I wonder if it was something like that, or as simple as the same reason most of us like or dislike a particular hole...I bet he could stand down in that fairway and cut a 6 iron up into the green about 10 times as successfully as the guys he might have been playing against in those spring training warmup games...

Yes, but he would have to draw it off the tee against his natural shot to get to that position.  Same with 4 at Riviera, another hole that he was a huge fan of.

It seems like that canted fairways are a key part of Augusta.  Therefore, holes like 6 at Seminole probably gave him a good test before the Masters.

[JESII]

Could be...but the far right portion of this fairway is pretty level and he would not have to draw it to get there.

Is hitting from a flat lie worth a slightly worse angle? Yardage would be pretty similar, maybe a bit longer from the flat lie.

I don't have the cut mid-iron, but if you do the right corner of this fairway is the garden spot...

[Philippe Binette]

I remember watching the US Am final at Baltusrol Upper course and thought there was some great canted fairways there

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff B - thanks for chiming in. Like Tom D did too, you reference grass types/mowing heights as a factor. If I'm understanding you right, I think I understand your point. But while I don't know where you and the rest of the fellas around here play most of your golf or how those golf courses are maintained, I can tell you that on the few courses I've played that had a canted fairway or two, there was no risk of the ball rolling off the fairway if you hit it to the high side, even if none of us could manage to draw or fade it to the high side. But even just having the 'signal' from the architect that we should try to make the attempt at a draw/fade was enough to add interest and fun and challenge.

Bob C - re Hogan and Seminole. I'm a hack, but if I couldn't at least aspire to one day achieving a Hogan-esque mastery of my ball flight I think I'd stop playing golf right now.

Peter     

[Sean_A]

One of the things which I love about Pennard is that many sorts of holes/shots can be talked about and I can site an example from this links.  As you would expect from an old time design like Pennard, there are several canted fairway shots.  In fact, thinking about there it are some doozies.  #6, 9, 10, 12, 16 (2nd shot), 17 & 18.  Of all these, I like the last best because it demands playing into the hill.  All the danger of the other canters can be avoided with layups, but uncharacteristically the last makes the player do something special.  What is also neat is that the required shot doesn't seem that evident until one sees the roll - the canter is greatly exaggerated by the firm conditions.


You lot should see Pennard, there is no other course like it.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

As you know, I've seen Pennard.  One of the things I liked about it is that the 17th fairway had as severe a left-to-right tilt, as the 18th goes right-to-left.  However, the last time I played there, I don't think ANYONE could have kept it in the 18th fairway with any kind of shot ... it was hard as a rock and all our tee shots wound up in the left rough.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - we exchanged posts about jazz drummers a while back. The ones you like didn't play on the beat - they kept great time, of course, but the beat was more implied than stated, and instead they played around the beat and added musical interest and subtlety with the high-hat and cymbals.  And it just struck me that, if I could stretch the analogy, that describes the kind of golf courses you like, including Pennard - nothing is on the beat, much is implied, but all the essentials are there, along with everything else.

Paulie - thanks. It took a day, but suddenly I got an image of curving fairways with the slope/cant going in the other direction.  I just can't see any downside.

Peter

[Mike_Young]

As TD mentioned re shaping of fairways beginning in late 70's.....
I think it would be fair to say that one of the leading factors in the rising cost of golf courses is the shaping of fairways on sites that would have not been considered before ......and I think it was during this time that golf holes began to be often routed perpendicular to the topo lines in drainage swales etc....where they never would have been considered before.  Fairway shaping has devalued the talent of routing.  just thoughts

[Sean_A]

Sean:

As you know, I've seen Pennard.  One of the things I liked about it is that the 17th fairway had as severe a left-to-right tilt, as the 18th goes right-to-left.  However, the last time I played there, I don't think ANYONE could have kept it in the 18th fairway with any kind of shot ... it was hard as a rock and all our tee shots wound up in the left rough.

Tom

That is am often missed characteristic of extreme design.  In unusual circumstances, the proper or best play can become too difficult.  This is why I reluctantly accept the drive on 17, it is extreme, but the real killer is its blindness.  Thats a no-no in my book, but if any place can pull it off its Pennard.  I have had many long discussions with the powers that be at Pennard concerning its width and how it is the reason why so much extreme architecture can be tolerated or even loved.  There has been a lot of talk about trying to create/define fairways with rough which I think is a huge mistake.  The may the cows roam on the Links in the Sky.

Enough chit chat, I am off to the Gower!

Ciao

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