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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2008, 05:47:36 PM »
Ron

Commonwealth was specifically designed to be a "tough" course at the request of the original developer.His other course nearby, Blue Bell, was the less demanding country club course. Unfortunately, the proposed 50000 square foot Tudor clubhouse never got built. Something about a recession in the early 90s doing him in.

 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 03:13:15 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

D_Malley

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2008, 08:42:31 AM »
I caddied for John Daly in the satelite tour event held there in mid 90's.  a couple of memorable moments.  Daly hitting it over the office buildings and onto the fringe of a par 4 (maybe the 6th).  also on the second day playing in the second group off, he hits second shot into jay siegels group while putting on the long par 5 on the back nine.  he then plays through their group.  he was wondering aloud why a group of ams would be playing for no $, and playing too slow.

By the way he treated me like a gentelmen and was very generous with his payment.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2008, 09:33:53 AM »
What happened to the pics? Now I'm seeing red boxes. I didn't see them yesterday. I posted them from snapfish.


I just re posted some pics above using flickr. I'll post more later.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 11:46:07 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark_Fine

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2008, 02:27:09 PM »
Mike,
You said:

"I didn't say it was terrible. It is just no fun to play, imo. I'm inclined to courses that challenge you after a mishit, not punish you."

I hear what you are saying.  But if that is the case then you wouldn't like Pine Valley, or Oakmont or The Ocean Course or ....  Some courses are just set up for the better golfer and designed to "punish" a bad shot.  As Mr. Fownes once said, a shot poorly played should be a shot irrevocably lost."   

If you miss a shot at Commonwealth, it is lost!  Some relish that kind of pressure/challenge, some don't.  I can't recall what handicap you play off, but for golfers above single digit, these kind of courses will not always be a pleasant experience. 
Mark
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mike_malone

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2008, 09:33:30 PM »
Mark,

   I think the strategy off the tee at PVGC embarasses CN. I haven't played Oakmont but my visit there during the Open showed a very challenging course but few places to lose your ball.


   You reallly don't mean to compare CN to those courses do you?

     The greatness of them is they are tough but fun.

   
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2008, 10:29:43 PM »
Quote from: michael_malone on October 12, 2008, 09:33:30 PM
Mark,

I think the strategy off the tee at PVGC embarasses CN.

PV's fairways tend to be wider, but, don't dismiss the strategy off the tee at CN.

I haven't played Oakmont but my visit there during the Open showed a very challenging course but few places to lose your ball.

There isn't much strategy off the tee at Oakmont.
The fairways are narrow, the fairway bunkers nearby and deep.
There is but one strategy, drive it in the fairway.

As to losing your ball, there are plenty of places at Oakmont where you can lose a ball.   Perhaps the TV cameras didn't show the hazards and the very tall grass where you hope you don't find your ball.

You reallly don't mean to compare CN to those courses do you ?

The only comparison is that they're probably both membes of the GAP.

The greatness of them is they are tough but fun.

With some mowing changes and some tweaks, CN could greatly improve as a golf course.

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mike_malone

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 01:05:18 PM »
 Pat,

   I agree there seemed little strategy off the tee at Oakmont; that is why I did not say it.

   I think it would take alot more than "mowing" to make CN great; you would need to blow it up and start over.
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 01:54:14 PM »
Mike,
As far as comparing PV with CN; both present penal tests of golf.  PV is a 10 in its presentation and CN is a 5 or 6 so yes I am comparing them.  I'm also saying that CN is not a dog track as you seem to have implied.  What do you give the golf course?
Mark 
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 03:22:57 PM »
Quote from: michael_malone on October 13, 2008, 01:05:18 PM

I agree there seemed little strategy off the tee at Oakmont; that is why I did not say it.

I think it would take alot more than "mowing" to make CN great; you would need to blow it up and start over.


Mowing is an easy start that provides a big bang for the buck.

There are more substantive changes that would need to take place.

I think the course has the basic framework to become a good/very good golf course.

I like it and I played it in competitions every year for a decade.

I think # 4 and # 6 are terrific holes, amongst several others.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 03:37:13 PM »
Mike,

If you want a "fun" course to play, go to LuLu, Torresdale- Frankford(I payed there today in an outing) or even Jeffersonville. Commonwealth is not such a place for a mid handicapper. Granted there are changes that can be made to improve the course but the penal nature(14 forced carries and lateral hazards/OOB on every hole) of the course will still remain. There are just too many opportunities for disasters. A member of this forum once told me that it's not so bad from the white tees IF you can drive the ball 200y AND straight. That would be great if a mid handicapper could do that 14 times per round. Some of my friends there are playing from the yellow tees to keep their sanity. Even though it's about 5800y from those tees, it carries a slope of 131.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 06:01:35 PM »
 Steve,

  If people need to go to such extremes then it proves my point that the course isn't fun.

    I do believe that golf is supposed to be fun. If under 20 handicappers have no fun then what is the purpose of designing a golf course?

   If you only have one real option for each shot then the whole concept of gca goes out the window.

   You only need to build two holes with a couple of greens at different lengths that parallel each other . The only factor is how far and straight you can hit it.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 06:06:21 PM »
Mike,

It may be fun for single digit handicappers. The developer got what he wanted from Palmer Design. Ed Seay liked the course. What's an architect to do when he gets marching orders like that?
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 07:09:05 PM »
  I imagine that only a minority of single digit golfers prefer penal to strategic golf. Why build a course with such a small base to please?


    I guess I'm okay if CN members want a course with lousy architecture. How can it be otherwise when choices are few and pinpoint accuracy is paramount?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Commonwealth National , Sort of Pretty, but I wanted to play Golf!
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2008, 08:09:12 PM »
Quote from: michael_malone on October 13, 2008, 07:09:05 PM

I imagine that only a minority of single digit golfers prefer penal to strategic golf. Why build a course with such a small base to please?

Shouldn't the same question be asked of Crump and Fownes ?

I guess I'm okay if CN members want a course with lousy architecture.


I don't see "lousy" architecture, and I've played there quite a bit.

Are there things that could be changed that would improve the course ?  Yes, but, that doesn't cast the course in the "lousy" category.

How can it be otherwise when choices are few and pinpoint accuracy is paramount?

I disagree with you on both points.

Where is pinpoint accuracy required ?

Where do you not have choices ?
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