[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom Y

Yeah, Yeah, Tom  you would not have golf and be playing it if it was not for THE GOOD OLD DAYS  - never forget that.

Are you just a Player or a Golfer?

[JSlonis]

Can someone please explain to me the HUGE amount of time saved between having no yardage on a course and then getting to your ball,  and trying to figure out how far you are by eyeing it up, guessing, pacing it off from your favorite bush/tree, etc...OR getting to your ball, shooting your Bushnell at the stick, which takes all of 5 seconds to get a proper yardage.

If you guys think there is any time saved, I think you've all lost it.

I fail to see how a group will play any quicker without the aid of yardage, it's just silly. How about the guy who under your plan guesses he's 160 yards out when in reality he's only 145...he hits his 145 club properly and comes up short...he now has to play a pitch shot which just adds time.  If he would've known he was 160 yds away in the first place, maybe he would have hit it on the green and saved the few precious minutes you're all looking for.

Yardage markers are not the difference bewtween a group playing in 3 1/2 hours or 4 1/2 hours.  I've played enough tournament golf to tell you that SLOW golfers are the difference.  The act of them acquiring their yardage is not what makes them slow.

[JSlonis]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this

Why am I always the last to find out?   Golf is easy?...Damn!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat and Melvyn,

I admit that I am not a purist;otherwise, I would play with persimmon woods, hickory shafts, balata or gutta percha balls,use sand tees and play the same course every day so that I can eyeball the distance or have my caddy, with his "cheat sheet" or local knowledge, tell me the distance from a certain bush,tree or hazard and wear pus fours and a tie and jacket when I play. Sometimes, however, I do wear a Hogan cap.

There is absolutely no correlation between yardage markers and slow play IMO. Tell me, Pat, how many PUBLIC courses have you played recently on a weekend morning where you had to endure a 5 hour or longer round just because someone in front of you was using a rangefinder, sky caddy or was walking off yardage ? Slow play is a result of a combination of factors. See the Bill Yates interview here on this site. He's an expert.

I really like the Upro GPS thingy.  Maybe someday I'll put in my bag. In the meantime, if a course has yardage markers of whatsoever kind, I'll gladly use them. Sometimes, the yardage just doesn't look right to my eye and I'll actually "eyeball" the yardage. How about that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can someone please explain to me the HUGE amount of time saved between having no yardage on a course and then getting to your ball,  and trying to figure out how far you are by eyeing it up, guessing, pacing it off from your favorite bush/tree, etc...OR getting to your ball, shooting your Bushnell at the stick, which takes all of 5 seconds to get a proper yardage.

Probably between 1 and 2 hours per round.

If you guys think there is any time saved, I think you've all lost it.


Stating that we've lost it implies that we once had it.

I can tell you that the evolving culture of golf, which seeking yardage to the inch is part of, has caused rounds to go from under 3 hours to 4, 5 and 6 hours.

I fail to see how a group will play any quicker without the aid of yardage,


You can't be serious.

One methodology occurs long before the golfer gets to his ball and culminates with a quick stroke.  The other only begins when the golfer has reached his ball and is a laborious process.

To see the difference, just place the two exercises in the context of a rainy day.

it's just silly.

Agreed, that's why range finders, lasers and GPS's should have been banned.

How about the guy who under your plan guesses he's 160 yards out when in reality he's only 145...he hit's his 145 club properly and comes up short...he now has to play a pitch shot which just adds time. 

In reality, which is what I assume we're discussing, that didn't happen very often.  Golfers became quite skilled at estimating distance.

If he would've know he was 160 yds away in the first place, maybe he would have hit it on the green and saved the few precious minutes you're all looking for.

But, that's not how it happens, either in the pre shot routine or on the results end of the process.

Look at the statistics of how many greens amateurs hit.
Overwhelmingly they miss the green, so what's the difference if they're short, long or on a flank, a miss is a miss and no additional time is taken.

However, on the pre shot routine, the golfer knew how far they were before they got to their ball.  Being at the ball confirmed the distance, hence they hit away.

Today, a golfer has to pace back or forth to his ball from the marker, or, get  his range/laser gun from his bag, shoot the distance and return the device to his bag.  Then start his pre shot routine.

And, I've seen golfers shoot the distance repeatedly to make sure they get it to the inch.

Yardage markers are not the difference bewtween a group playing in 3 1/2 hours or 4 1/2 hours.  I've played enough tournament golf to tell you that SLOW golfers are the difference. 

Jamie, with all due respect, tournament golfers are the worst offenders.

THEY ARE THE SLOWEST PLAYERS BY FAR.
 
One of the reasons they're slow is because they disrupt the continuity or flow of play by searching for markers and then pacing to see where they are to the center, then calculating where they are relative to the hole.
It's a laborious process.

The act of them acquiring their yardage is not what makes them slow.

It's certainly a major contributing factor

I have a simple solution for tournament golfers.

Tee off 10 minutes apart.

Complete play in less than 3 hours and 3.5 hours (threesomes & foursomes) and NO more than 10 minutes behind the group in front of you, or face a penalty of a minimum of 2 strokes.

Trust me, you'd see faster play within the year.

[Bill Brightly]

C'mon Pat. You know full well that yardage markers dont cause slow play. I can pace off every distance and play in 3 hours with the right foursome.

Four to five hour rounds come from

1) ridiculous amounts of time wasted on putting greens
2) not being ready to hit throughout the round
3) not "thinking fast play"

Take out the markers and NONE of that changes.

Penalize players, however, and they can speed right up

[JNC Lyon]

Keep 100, 150, 200, and 250 yard markers, and give distances to blind hazards off the tee.  Ban all distance measuring equipment.  The only reason I would keep markers every 50 yards is so as not to give a huge advantage to the golfer who has played the course before. 

I like this approach a lot.  It is very simple, yet it works perfectly.  It doesn't have the distances to every corner of the green.  Yardages to hazard should also be there.  There's nothing more annoying than hitting a good drive and walking up to find it in a water hazard.  Neither of these types of yardage markers are necessary if the course has a strong caddy program like Friar's Head, but this certainly can be expected of most courses.

GPS Systems and Sky Caddies are a DISGRACE to the game of golf.  It takes away any imagination.  If you've played a course enough, you should have an idea of how far a shot will play.  Dragging out a laser gun is merely a disgrace to yourself.  It is right up there with golf carts as something that should be highly discouraged in the game of golf.

[Jason McNamara]

I don't have great eye sight, but, I can approximate distance pretty well.

Maybe it's because I had to when I first started playing golf.

Or maybe you have equally average eyes.  Give a guy one good eye and one weak one, and his depth perception will likely stink, independent of how good or bad his vision is.

So I just find playing partners with good depth perception.  I watch the tee balls (I am farsighted), they give me distances.  It works out.

[Michael]

Isn't slow play a personal thing? I don't think having or not having GPS/yardage markers will speed up slow players.

At least where I play the slow players are the ones that never look at their own shot until the others have gone through their pre shot routine and played, or look at their line until the other "away" guy has putted..

..Slow play is a mind set

[JSlonis]

Can someone please explain to me the HUGE amount of time saved between having no yardage on a course and then getting to your ball,  and trying to figure out how far you are by eyeing it up, guessing, pacing it off from your favorite bush/tree, etc...OR getting to your ball, shooting your Bushnell at the stick, which takes all of 5 seconds to get a proper yardage.

Probably between 1 and 2 hours per round.

If you guys think there is any time saved, I think you've all lost it.


Stating that we've lost it implies that we once had it.

I can tell you that the evolving culture of golf, which seeking yardage to the inch is part of, has caused rounds to go from under 3 hours to 4, 5 and 6 hours.

I fail to see how a group will play any quicker without the aid of yardage,


You can't be serious.

One methodology occurs long before the golfer gets to his ball and culminates with a quick stroke.  The other only begins when the golfer has reached his ball and is a laborious process.

To see the difference, just place the two exercises in the context of a rainy day.

it's just silly.

Agreed, that's why range finders, lasers and GPS's should have been banned.

How about the guy who under your plan guesses he's 160 yards out when in reality he's only 145...he hit's his 145 club properly and comes up short...he now has to play a pitch shot which just adds time. 

In reality, which is what I assume we're discussing, that didn't happen very often.  Golfers became quite skilled at estimating distance.

If he would've know he was 160 yds away in the first place, maybe he would have hit it on the green and saved the few precious minutes you're all looking for.

But, that's not how it happens, either in the pre shot routine or on the results end of the process.

Look at the statistics of how many greens amateurs hit.
Overwhelmingly they miss the green, so what's the difference if they're short, long or on a flank, a miss is a miss and no additional time is taken.

However, on the pre shot routine, the golfer knew how far they were before they got to their ball.  Being at the ball confirmed the distance, hence they hit away.

Today, a golfer has to pace back or forth to his ball from the marker, or, get  his range/laser gun from his bag, shoot the distance and return the device to his bag.  Then start his pre shot routine.

And, I've seen golfers shoot the distance repeatedly to make sure they get it to the inch.

Yardage markers are not the difference bewtween a group playing in 3 1/2 hours or 4 1/2 hours.  I've played enough tournament golf to tell you that SLOW golfers are the difference. 

Jamie, with all due respect, tournament golfers are the worst offenders.

THEY ARE THE SLOWEST PLAYERS BY FAR.
 
One of the reasons they're slow is because they disrupt the continuity or flow of play by searching for markers and then pacing to see where they are to the center, then calculating where they are relative to the hole.
It's a laborious process.

The act of them acquiring their yardage is not what makes them slow.

It's certainly a major contributing factor

I have a simple solution for tournament golfers.

Tee off 10 minutes apart.

Complete play in less than 3 hours and 3.5 hours (threesomes & foursomes) and NO more than 10 minutes behind the group in front of you, or face a penalty of a minimum of 2 strokes.

Trust me, you'd see faster play within the year.

Pat,

While I appreciate your point of view, I don't see the same time savings as you.

Save 1 to 2 hours?  What?  NO chance.  Maybe if the foursome did WIND SPRINTS between shots, but barring that, no way.

I agree that "tournament golfers" are slower in general, but not all are.  I know plenty of guys who could complete tournament rounds in under 4 hours, but I also know that if there are others out ahead of us on the course, we have ZERO chance of doing that.  My regular group at Tavistock routinely finishes in a bit under four hours unless we're held up and we all walk.

If yardage was taken off of your course tomorrow and golfers weren't allowed their distance devices and had to guesstimate the yardages, don't you think scores would be HIGHGER?  Higher scores mean more shots, more shots require more time.

I love your tournament idea and I'd sign up in a second for a tournament that actually followed through with the guidelines.  Unfortunately, we never see it happen.

[Michael Powers]

Ed,
You're saying we should prohibit players from walking off yardage?  Why not blind fold them and give them all guide dogs that are trained to take them to their ball.  Once they arrive at their tee shot, only then will they be permitted to remove the blind fold and play.  I think it could work.

[Ajay Yadav]

Golf is becoming dull.<P>It is becoming monotonous, repetitive and easy. We all know this.<P>Let's remove yardage markers and bring back some variety, judgement, skill and excitement back into the gane.<P>Let's not become robots.

Golf course architecture (read: better design) is the solution (and not removal of yardage markers) to bring back variety, judgement, skill and excitement.  Bring choices to be considered in every shot and see how fast it becomes fun, interesting and challenging.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed,
You're saying we should prohibit players from walking off yardage?  Why not blind fold them and give them all guide dogs that are trained to take them to their ball.  Once they arrive at their tee shot, only then will they be permitted to remove the blind fold and play.  I think it could work.

Michael,

You should know that the USGA banned the practice of pacing forward years ago.

We live with a generation that feels a right of entitlement with respect to being supplied with everything, including the distance to the front, back and center of the green, along with the exact hole location, wind direction, humidity, barometric pressure and elevation, not to mention the difference between true north and magnetic north.

[Jim Nugent]

I don't really know what you're talking about here.  Knowing the right distance and trying to dial it in just right is very fun and challenging.  Do you want to take that element of the game away?  Precise shotmaking? 

I suspect that some think that taking away yardage markers would add skill to the game.  I contend that it would do the exact opposite.  It would even the playing field among those who can dial in their yardages and those that can't.
 

Is that what golf was like before yardage markers?  Hogan, Nelson, Bobby Jones, Snead, et. al. had the playing field evened against them? 

[Jim Nugent]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

Because there are so many more golfers per course, on average, than there were back then.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

Because there are so many more golfers per course, on average, than there were back then.   

That has nothing to do with it.

If you tee off 10 minutes apart, it doesn't matter if you have 4, 40 or 400 golfers playing.

Play should be in 3-3"15 hours for a foursome.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Unfortunately, tee times at most PUBLIC courses are 7,8 or 9 minutes apart. The more the merrier for the owners. What do they care about slow play? See Bill Yates Feature Interview here.

[Michael]

Steve,

If yardage markers are good for the game, as you state.

Why are rounds taking an hour or two longer than when there were NO yardage markers ?

Because there are so many more golfers per course, on average, than there were back then.   

That has nothing to do with it.

If you tee off 10 minutes apart, it doesn't matter if you have 4, 40 or 400 golfers playing.

Play should be in 3-3"15 hours for a foursome.

 Pat.
 Do you agree that slow play is just the "mind set" of the individual player? maybe influenced by what he sees on the course as well as T.V? In which case I don't see how adding or removing anything will help.

Michael

[Doug Siebert]

The USGA addressed that practice when they banned going forward to determine yardage.

WTF?  Am I violating the rules if I walk closer to the hole looking for a sprinkler head?  We are truly living in bizarro world if that's against the rules, but using a GPS or a laser is OK!

[Doug Siebert]

One thing that really helps me (and speeds play) when I'm on a course for the first time is yardage markers that are visible from the tee.  Sometimes due to the topography yardage estimation from the tee can be difficult.  I know a lot of people hate the little poles at 100/150/200 yards (especially if they are in the fairway) but they come in really handy for me off the tee.

When I hit a drive (or even a half wedge, for that matter) I can see the ball just fine to its apex and beginning its fall, but I've always had a lot of problems tracking falling objects, so I'll lose it on the way down.  Like I said, it happens for all shots, even a 50 yard lob, so its not a matter of poor visual acuity, just something my brain doesn't do well for whatever reason.  So when I hit a drive, I watch the ball until it begins to drop, then follow where I think its falling and expecting to see it land.

If I hit a ball that might carry around 280 yards, but since I don't know the hole I'm looking 230 yards out or 330 yards out I won't see it.  By the time I get there and can find sprinkler heads I can at least have a better idea where I should be looking, but I still lose some balls that way and waste time finding those I do locate, where if I was able to see it land there would be no delay at all.

They are also useful for me to know where to aim on a dogleg.  If I think the fairway starts to bend much further away than it does I might play it straight and fly well through the dogleg, or I could attempt to bite off too much and fall short if it is much further than I think.  Strokesavers are usually good for this issue, but only if they are available.

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