Your collection of strategic par fives

[David Stewart]

Hello everyone,

I have been an outside observer to the site for a while but have just recently joined.  It has truly been a great learning experience just reading the various posts.

My question is regarding par fives.  Let's say you get to pick 4 from anywhere in the world and the only consideration you have is their strategy.  They do not need to visually fit together, but just be the best strategic collection of four.  Do you make them all reachable by the better player?  How many true three shotters do you have?  Please give your reasoning in choosing each hole.  Curious to hear your ideas and thanks again for keeping such a great site going.

[Ronald Montesano]

I like reasonably flat or uphill areas from which to hit a fairway metal.  If an architect gives me a downhill slope for the majority of the tee shot landing area, I cry "foul."  I'm not prejudiced against sloped or non-sloped fairways.  In western New York, we have much farmland that is quite level or slightly rolling, so the ability to create slopes is minimized.  However, we have foothills to the south (near the PA border) where natural ups and downs do occur.  There's also a glacial drumlin near Rochester where Mill Creek was built recently by Paul Albanese, and it takes advantage of this vertical movement.

I've played the four Kohler courses, the three Bandon courses, at least  30 different courses in New England, a handful of northern Michigan courses (including Arcadia), a number of Piedmont and low country courses in the Carolinas, and the Old and New courses in St. Andrews, not to mention over 100 courses between Ontario, Ohio, New York and Pennsylvania.

On my dream sequence of long holes, I like at least one shortie with a creek meandering (not running, not raging, just meandering) through lazily, ready to grab me if I should falter or lose focus.  Even a three metal off the tee, if played properly, should afford me a chance of hitting 5 metal to get home in two.  This would place distance around 470 yards.  On the opposite end of the spectrum, I like a monster over 600 yards.  It can play slightly uphill as long as the landing areas are favorable.  The long one at the Concord Monster in the Catskills was NOT this type of hole...it was over 600 but you couldn't find anywhere to hit your second shot.

The essence of par fives for me, embodied in my other two long holes (between 520 and 580) is the sensation of a sweeping meadow.  You get this on number 10 at Taconic, on the new number 15 at Gowanda CC in western New York (built by GCA's Scott Witter), the Unter Der Linden hole at Blackwolf Run River, and the 4th at Buck Hill Falls Blue course.  It can bend leftward or rightward but it needs the sensation of a banked racetrack to really flow my juices.

I'm not a fan of claustrophobic alleys but I do like a cliffside green with treacherous bunkering beneath the edge.  Sweeping greens with upwards of five pin placements are welcome.  That's what I have to begin.

[David Stewart]

Ronald,

Great stuff.  I really like you collection also with one monster, one shorty, and two reachable only for the better player.  For your monster, what differences would it have than your others?  Wider fairway, fewer harzards, larger/less severe green?  Or do you load it up and say if you make a five here great job?

[Kalen Braley]

Ronald,

Great stuff.  I really like you collection also with one monster, one shorty, and two reachable only for the better player.  For your monster, what differences would it have than your others?  Wider fairway, fewer harzards, larger/less severe green?  Or do you load it up and say if you make a five here great job?

David,

Why have 3 holes that are very long for the average player?

[David Stewart]

David,

Why have 3 holes that are very long for the average player?

That is also dependent on the tees you choose.  So many times I see people play the wrong tees when I play.  My father can only hit it about 210-220 off the tee and I always feel like I have to force him to play the box in front of my brothers and me.  I like his lengths for the player who averages 275 off the tee.  If you have holes that measured 470, 520, 580, and say 610, they would have about 195, 245, 305, and 335 in on those four holes.  They are pretty much guaranteed to get to the first hole in two and if they hit a good ball on the second and a great ball on the third, have a chance at those also.  Maybe lower that third one down to the 540 or 550 range so there is more of a chance.  If a player only hits it 230 I would not reccommend those yardages, maybe play more like 440, 485, 520, and 570 or so.  I do like having one full three shotter on the course, but that can get rather boring if it happens too often.  It is more enjoyable to stand in the fairway and have to assess your game and the hazards in front of you than just know you have to lay up.  So I would say I like one that you can for sure go after, two that are maybes if you hit a solid drive, and one good three shotter.

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't think that 510-520 is very long for the average player.  That's why the option is in there.  The average player will not play the tips, so the Monster will only play 570 or so for the AP. 

On my Monster hole, David, I would much rather see a Hell's Half Acre-style bunker cut into a ridge between drive zone and landing zone for second shot, as well as an alternate fairway down low for those who choose to make it a four-shot hole and avoid the bunker.  Gil Hanse is cutting a bunker into the ridge on the second hole at Taconic.  Even though it's a par four, it will have the desired effect.  I prefer hollows and other declivities leading into and surrounding the green, as opposed to bunkers.  I think that the Robert Trent Jones Senior attitude of "Let's obliterate the final 100-180 yards leading up to the green," in evidence at the 17th at Tanglewood and the 18th at Boyne Heather, has no place here.  I'd like to see the green present as formidable a challenge as the length.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Welcome to the site, David!

Your question about whether to make them all reachable is the one that resonates with me. I like reachable, gambling par 5s, but at the end of the day variety must be served.

So to the holes - would want them to appear in the same position in the round as in the real world:

2 RMW - because an excellent tee shot merely privileges you to take on another major challenge. Coming so early in the round often results in an opportunity foregone. Never boring.
4 BB - climb these steps in a beautiful three step execution; as majestic a golf hole as exists, ocean-view holes included
14 TOC - many routes that vary according to the conditions, the golfer's game, and his desire to try different things
18 Yale - because life is unfair, occasionally whimsical, sometimes better than we deserve, and largely beyond our poor power to control. And because golf is a game...

FYI the hardest decision was choosing TOC 14 over ANGC 13.

Mark

[J_ Crisham]

I would say that the Par 5's at Beverly are as good as any collective group . They are affected differently by the wind as they go in  different directions . They also range from 565 to 605yds so they test the better player but are parrable by the 15 hndcpr. Great collection of greens on these holes as well . Very strategic holes yet no water and OB on only the 11th hole.        Jack