[archie_struthers]

 

Played Philly Country Club over the weekend and despite some horrible golf by me enjoyed the course immensely......Like most of the Flynn courses it has a fabulous mix of short and long holes and is a great test of golf from the tees we played ... kudos to the super Mike McNulty who does a great job ..the greens were very firm ...medium fast

However there is a bunker on the 14th hole, right on the elbow of the dogleg that I abhor... to many it "guards" the short way home...but this too is a distortion of reality

In  fact there is another bunker short right that seems senseless , but it doesn't bother me near as much..... It doesn't break the l"line of charm " from tee to green.  I'm sure a couple of Flynn fans out there will know the bunker of which I speak...#14 is a downhill par four , probably 475 from the back tee but lenngth isn't really an issue on the hole. perhaps someone can post a picture of same, as I am always impressed by the technological talents of the brethren.

It begs another question ...if it's awful but original...can mere mortals remove it ??

[JESII]

Archie,

Pretty dull drive if that bunker is gone, no?

[Cabell Ackerly]

Archie,
What exactly don't you like about the bunker?

It seems to me that it's in play for many players. To me - fun, strategic bunker design begins with placing bunkers close to or exactly where the player would naturally want to hit his shot. Standing on that tee, it's difficult to aim right of the bunker.

[archie_struthers]

   Jes ....no the bunker isn't super penal , in fact if the rough is up or it's wet I'm guessing the bunker is a better spot to play from ...given the cant of the green the right side isn't the "right " side to approach from

that's my point ...the initial reaction is that the bunker is protecting the elbow...the short way home....but the rough left is the wrong angle for the approach to the green ....in fact a really subtle design change (like removing the bunker) might tempt players to take that route ...

Aesthetically it's ugly and breaks the sightline to the greenside bunkers, which are very good looking....when you stand on that tee all you can see is that bunker...Jim you probably can knock it over even from the back tee , I can't but short of getting real unlucky and plugging one what me worry  LOL   as state there is little or no lip in front and it's rather benign

most annoying to me is it's UGLY   lol

[Cabell Ackerly]

Archie,
I'd agree that the bunker is a better place to be than the rough left of it.  I didn't notice it being particularly unattractive to be honest. You're right in that's it's not particularly penal.

It's been a few years since I've been there, but my only critique of the hole might be that the 14th fairway is pretty darn narrow, and really "challenging" that bunker on the tee shot isn't a reality for most people...they just want to get it in the short grass.

[JESII]

I think the pine trees in the right rough are the issue more than the bunker...for all the reasons you used...

[archie_struthers]

Jim  ...I find it  hard to believe that the  stategy is to get guys away from bunker so as to bring the pine trees into play ...for you guys who hit it tour long this might be a by product of tree growth  but   I just can't buy into
 that  I hit it into bunker from the back tee and had a pretty easy shot,,,foozled it left of course and made another bogey  <lol>

It's really bad looking to me ....and not that strategic...I say get rid of the thing .... I wonder if it's even original ?    Not that that would matter as to my opinion of it!

[wsmorrison]

Here is a low res copy of Flynn's last iteration (for the 1939 US Open) for the current 14th, originally the 1st hole.  Notice the right greenside bunker is removed from the green like very few other greenside bunkers I've ever seen Flynn draw.  I wonder what the reason for that was.




The ideal play seems to me along the right side of the fairway so that you are hitting into the slope of the left to right sloping green benched into the hillside.  The photo below shows the ideal angle in, along the outside of the dogleg.  I think Flynn was using the traditional challenge line bunker cutting off the shortest route to the green in order to deceive the golfer that isn't using his mind as much as another who realizes the outside of the dogleg, and thus the longer route, is the best route.  Note, the two fingers in the right greenside bunker are not original nor are they attractive.

[archie_struthers]

 


Wayne great stuff!  Knew one of you guys would help me out...In the drawing the bunker looks good and very strategic....in real life it is still on the downslope or very bottom of the hill...wouldn't it work better built into the slight upslope ....again I don't like it at all, but there's no accounting for taste!

thank you

[Cabell Ackerly]

Here is a low res copy of Flynn's last iteration (for the 1939 US Open) for the current 14th, originally the 1st hole.  Notice the right greenside bunker is removed from the green like very few other greenside bunkers I've ever seen Flynn draw.  I wonder what the reason for that was.



The ideal play seems to me along the right side of the fairway so that you are hitting into the slope of the left to right sloping green benched into the hillside.  The photo below shows the ideal angle in, along the outside of the dogleg.  I think Flynn was using the traditional challenge line bunker cutting off the shortest route to the green in order to deceive the golfer that isn't using his mind as much as another who realizes the outside of the dogleg, and thus the longer route, is the best route.  Note, the two fingers in the right greenside bunker are not original nor are they attractive.

Wayne,
Maybe my memory is deceiving me, but isn't the ideal drive hit just right of the bunker in question? My recollection is that a ball hit on that line will roll to the right side of the fairway due to the topography of the land.

[TEPaul]

Alright ARCHIE, you're in trouble now for denigrating that bunker the way you have. I know where you live and you're in trouble now Skeebo! Wayne, are there any diners near where ARCHIE lives so we can take him into a booth in it on a Friday night and beat the tar outta him for this sacrilege?

I always liked the position of that bunker and particularly the way it screwed up the line of charm visually. For me it was always too far out and I don't even remember some of the longer players I knew around there actually trying to carry it. Most just seemed to try to skirt along its right side and from there the ball sort of caroomed down and right into the ideal approach area that seems to be from the right side to increase the angle for playing more up into the left to right cant of that green.

Wayne's right about that left bunker up near the green in how interesting it is that its a bit short of the green. The strategic reason for that is to give a golfer the option of playing very near it and just past it to kick the ball left to right onto the green.

That hole really does need to have fairway up there to really promote that left to right fairway "kicker" onto the green. As long as I've known that hole the club always had rough up there and I think that's too bad. They should recognize Flynn had a fairway kicker up there---eg you can see it on his drawing Wayne just posted.

Would that make the approach a bit easier? Of course it would (and that's probably why it's in rough now and has been as long as I can remember) but it would also make approaching that green a helluva lot more optional and whole lot more fun.

[JESII]

Archie,

Maybe I should start by saying that I do not believe thick rough should ever be thought of by the architect as a defense mechanism so your comment that if the bunker were not there you could be worse off if the rough is up is off base in my opinion...next, I think with firm turf throughout that bunker should act as; either a side board for guys my length to land next to to get the ball to run over to the right to the best approach angle, or a target for shorter guys that cannot carry the right bunkers.   Those shorter players should then have the benefit Tom Paul mentions of a fairway kicker for the last 20 or 30 yards along the left hillside.

My issue with the trees is that if the fairway rolled down and over that hill that they sit on, guys my length that flare a ball out to the right are going to run down the hill further away from the green and be left with an exciting, albeit difficult recovery instead of a sap-grabbing chip out from under a pine tree.

I'll agree with the poor cosmetics of that elbow bunker (after all, we have dozens of ugly ones like it at HVCC), but not with its placement...

To me, architecture and maintenance cannot be separated when thinking about a golf course...

[wsmorrison]

Cabell,

It is best to hit the ball just right of the left fairway bunker and let the fairway slope take the ball to the right side of the fairway for an optimal approach angle to the green. 

Tom P,

I was referring to the right greenside bunker.  See how it is drawn a bit away from the putting surface?  That is unusual--see the other greenside bunkers I included in the cropped drawing.

As for the left greenside bunker, yes, it should be fairway between the bunker and the green.  Let's go over and chase down Mike McNulty.  You better not smoke for a while so you'll have enough wind to catch him.

I like the first left fairway bunker.  I think it looks good and it gives me something to aim near.  But I can understand why Archie might not like it.  As for a diner, I don't know...I suppose we can find a good one near him.  Speaking of diners, let's bring Malone to one for old time's sake 

[archie_struthers]

 


Wayne, wouldn't not having the bunker left get more suckers to bite on the short way home...and kill them with the stilletto....  Seems more Flynn's style ...very cerebral stuff yes it is

JES  I respectfully disagree.. the bunker is actually preferable to the rough ...not good

Tom...you get the gold star , escuse the pandering ... that is a great idea !
As was my day I hit it (from the bunker ) six inches too far left and hung up in the rough,,,

[TEPaul]

"As for a diner, I don't know...I suppose we can find a good one near him."


OK, fine, Wayne, if you don't want to get him on the inside of a booth in a diner on Friday night and beat the tar out of him for that remark about that bunker at least let's take him to a diner on a Friday night and have a major league food fight.

[JESII]

JES  I respectfully disagree.. the bunker is actually preferable to the rough ...not good

Arch,

How about if the bunker were not formally raked?

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne

Perhaps Flynn wanted that green side turf, to the right, for drainage.  It is somewhat similar to what he had in mind for #12 on Merion East.

I bet that left to right slope has been reduced over the years.

[wsmorrison]

Perhaps Flynn wanted that green side turf, to the right, for drainage.  It is somewhat similar to what he had in mind for #12 on Merion East.

Could be, Bill.  I hadn't thought of that.

I bet that left to right slope has been reduced over the years.

You should know.  Do you think because of sand splash from the right greenside bunker?

[JESII]

Wayne and Bill,

Could it be that he felt for maintenance purposes the sand up the face was wrong and so he built/drew in a bit of room to grass the face on some of his particularly steep low side bunkers?

Huntingdon Valley is filled with these very large low side bunkers, and most (not all) have grass up to the green today and I would think it is a maintenance nightmare...

Jim

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne

Back in the '50's, when I wasn't into gca, I seem to recall that Warren Bidwell made some changes to the contour of some greens that the committee felt were too severe.  It made some of the members so mad that they quit, and joined Merion.

If you look at your photo, you can see that the hill to the left has been scalloped out somewhat, and I think this is one of the old changes.

Scallops are pretty good up here in New Bedford, by the way

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