[Patrick_Mucci]

Yesterday, this par 5 of 588 yielded many bogies, doubles and triples.

WHY ?

Is this hole, designed about 80 years ago, the answer to defending par against the greatest players in the world ?

It has so many defenses that thwart low scores.

OB Left
Woods Right
Interupting cross mounds/rough
A fairway that slopes sharply right to left
A dogleg on the approach to the green
An angled green
A well protected green
A narrow green
A triple/quad decker green
A back to front sloping green

Position is critical.
Off the tee
On the second
On the approach

Putting is tested on the green

Misses are challenged on the recovery.

Is this a poster hole for defending par ?    For every level of golfer ?

[Michael Moore]

The length of this hole also adds difficulty.

[Anthony Fowler]

Without having seen the hole in person I will not comment on it specifically.  I applaud your effort to find elements of golf holes that defend par in the modern day.  It's nice to see that most of the features you have described do not seem to be gimmicky and are actually features of interesting golf holes.  I will warn that IMO some defenses of par come at a cost.

First you have listed OB Left.  I do not think OB is a good way of defending par or a good anything.  OB is sometimes a necessity due to property limitations but never desirable.  Architects should come up with more interesting (and recoverable) challenges than white stakes.

You also mentioned the multi-level green.  One level greens with a lot of contour are typically more interesting and challenging than multi-level greens.  I do not think multi-levels are a good way of defending par, but I imagine that Tilly did it better than most.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Without having seen the hole in person I will not comment on it specifically.  I applaud your effort to find elements of golf holes that defend par in the modern day.  It's nice to see that most of the features you have described do not seem to be gimmicky and are actually features of interesting golf holes.  I will warn that IMO some defenses of par come at a cost.

First you have listed OB Left.  I do not think OB is a good way of defending par or a good anything.  OB is sometimes a necessity due to property limitations but never desirable.  Architects should come up with more interesting (and recoverable) challenges than white stakes.

When the property line ends, you don't have a choice.

You also mentioned the multi-level green.  One level greens with a lot of contour are typically more interesting and challenging than multi-level greens. 

In the case of this green I would disagree.
It also has contour in addition to multi-levels.

I do not think multi-levels are a good way of defending par, but I imagine that Tilly did it better than most.

# 3 green and surrounds are exceptional.
Fair but challenging.

[Anthony Fowler]

Thanks for the response Patrick.  I accept your recommendation of this hole and will look forward to it on my first (if perhaps unforeseeable) trip to Ridgewood.

First you have listed OB Left.  I do not think OB is a good way of defending par or a good anything.  OB is sometimes a necessity due to property limitations but never desirable.  Architects should come up with more interesting (and recoverable) challenges than white stakes.

When the property line ends, you don't have a choice.

I acknowledge that this is sometimes a practical necessity, but I do not accept this as a strong suit or a good way of defending par.

# 3 green and surrounds are exceptional.
Fair but challenging.[/b]

I would not have expected anything less.  I just disagree with the notion that multi-level greens in general are a good way of defending par.  Internal contour is much more important than levels.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks for the response Patrick.  I accept your recommendation of this hole and will look forward to it on my first (if perhaps unforeseeable) trip to Ridgewood.

First you have listed OB Left.  I do not think OB is a good way of defending par or a good anything.  OB is sometimes a necessity due to property limitations but never desirable.  Architects should come up with more interesting (and recoverable) challenges than white stakes.

When the property line ends, you don't have a choice.

I acknowledge that this is sometimes a practical necessity, but I do not accept this as a strong suit or a good way of defending par.

It's a reality.
OB exists on the perimeter of the golf course on innumerable holes.
Remember, this is a 27 hole facility with a large cemetary, industrial complex, another golf course and other land bordering it.  It is what it is.

# 3 green and surrounds are exceptional.
Fair but challenging.[/b]

I would not have expected anything less.  I just disagree with the notion that multi-level greens in general are a good way of defending par. 


How do you feel about the 4th green at Spyglass Hill ?

The 7th at Friar's Head ?

The 1st & 3rd at NGLA ?

What multi-tier greens do you object to ?

Internal contour is much more important than levels.

I don't know that you can make that statement.

Multi-tier greens contouring inherent in their structure.

Are there many better greens in golf than the 11th at NGLA and the way it functions on the hole and with the wind ?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I first played this hole in the 1994 Met Open and remember it giving everyone fits.  The tree infestation took away plaing for angles.  However, you really had to think where to lay up for the best opportunity to knock it close on the approach.  I played with someone who reached greenhigh in 2 and proceeded to make 7 both days.  I think the green has some wonderful contours in addtion to the three levels.  Among the Tilly par 5's in metro NY this is one of the best.

[Bill Brightly]

I agree that OB is a negative on ANY golf hole. However, for the purposes of Pat's thesis, is does not matter.The entire left side of the hole is solid woods. You are dead in there anyway, it just happens to be OB.

But I think Pat has hit on a great point: this hole really does have a great variety of ways to defend par besides length. He listed them, so i wont repeat, but slight misteps off the tee or on your second shot have you SCARAMBLING to save par. Yet a normal length drive and good rescue club put you in perfect position for a wedge or short iron to the green, you do not have to bust two long shots. But....

once you are in position, you had better hit the proper level of the green. (nearly impossible if you haven't hit the fairway with your second shot...) It is a triple deck green, but the tiers angle left to right. (Like the short # 7 at Westchester, only the tiers are angled.)

The only thing Pat left out is deception: on your second shot it looks like you can cut the corner  over a mound and aim at the hole: wrong, that is rough and tough to hit iron to the correct section.

So yes, this is a poster for defending par!

[Ian Larson]

Ridgewood was my first job as a spray technician out of college....

...one day I had cup changing duty and put the cup in the front at the bottom right side I think on 3 east. The super was so pissed after he saw that pin! But at the end of the day the entire staff was hanging out putting around trying to hit that pin from the back of the green and the ball would break like four times and impossible to stop at the pin. It was kinda ridiculous and I remember it being a good lesson learned at a young age to pay attention to where I was actually placing the pins. Its been awhile but I think there are about 4 or 5 shelves on the green sloping from back to front.

[Mike Policano]

Gents,

This hole plays OB on the left for member play to speed up play.  For the FedEx, there is no OB on this hole.  To reach it in two players must challenge the woods on the left side.  If they put it up the left side they have a look at the green.  Most players were laying up and trying to get up and down.

Pat is correct that the three tier green set at a 45 degree angle to the fairway provides a great defense.  It is also angled right to left and bunkered on both sides with a mound short left.  Therefore, it is best approached from the left edge of the fairway.  Anything right of that is quite challenging.  Very few pros have reached it in two so far.  The hole locations the first two days were easy.  Look for more difficult locations over the weekend.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill & Mike,

I forgot to mention the uphill nature of the hole from the mounds to the green.

And, Bill, you're right, the hole is deceptive on the second shot, and, it's easy to underclub.

Second shots that try to take the short route to the green are left with very difficult approaches

Ridgewood probably has as good a set of par 5's as any club.

# 3 is outstanding

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