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TEPaul

Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« on: July 20, 2008, 11:48:37 AM »
I can tell that this one will create a helluva rules debate on here.

The on-air Rules expert from the R&A I do not think explained it all that correctly (via what I think I saw) as I think he said Harrington's marker was still on the ground and that had something to do with it. I don't think that matters, as the fact is it seems the ball had been replaced and was therefore back in play (after a few seconds) and the wind moved it.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 11:54:42 AM »
The common sense approach: no advantage, no harm, no foul. Play on.

TEPaul

Re: Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 12:03:57 PM »
Ryan:

I think it was done correctly, it just seems like an odd interpretation on the part of that "on-air" R&A Rules commentator.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 12:14:56 PM »
Tom, as on the other thread, all these circumstances could be easily cleared up by the rephrazing, "when on the green, whenever the wind can reasonably be deemed to have caused the ball to move, before or after having taken stance and grounding the club, or while marking, the ball may be replaced and the stroke taken without penalty".  What is so hard about that, and how could that possibly have any advantageous effect on the game to rectify the situation the wind created arbitrarily? 

We all get the grounding of a club to improve the lie in the fw or rough, and causing the ball to move into the flattened area that was pressed down.  But, on the green is just not sensible.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 01:50:55 PM »
TePaul,

Is that what you heard?  I think I heard that he had already picked the marker up, and since the ball wasn't at address there was no penalty.

I also heard the TV guy say that this conclusively proves that Barker and CBM should get more design credit for Merion.  Didn't mention Whigham, though. ;D

You didn't hear that part?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Harrington's moving ball on #10 green
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 02:12:05 PM »
"Tom, as on the other thread, all these circumstances could be easily cleared up by the rephrazing, "when on the green, whenever the wind can reasonably be deemed to have caused the ball to move, before or after having taken stance and grounding the club, or while marking, the ball may be replaced and the stroke taken without penalty".  What is so hard about that, and how could that possibly have any advantageous effect on the game to rectify the situation the wind created arbitrarily?"


RJ:

I guess I didn't read all the posts on the other thread. Is that something that was proposed?

I wouldn't endorse something like that otherwise wind (and probably water) wouldn't be treated any differently from an "Outside Agency". An "Outside Agency" by basic definition and the game's philosophy is something that is not part of the course, the game, the player, his caddie or equipment. Wind is most definitely something that is one of the essentially elements of the game itself.  For that reason alone I don't think it should ever be treated the same as an "Outside Agency" even in this case of wind moving a ball on the green after address.

I realize that "deeming" the player to have caused the ball to move in all cases after he has "addressed" the ball by grounding his putter on a putting green may seem harsh in some circumstances but if it were otherwise the way would be open to have to analyze every single situation individually and that I don't think is something The Rules wants to open up. In a sense the way the Rule is that way is something of golf's basic equity philosophy that "similar situations should be treated alike."

Furthermore, as always the player in these types of situations does have at least two ways to protect himself from penalty in this general situation.

1. Remark his ball if there is doubt it may move (by the wind) after he's addressed it.
2. Do not ground your putter if there is danger of the wind moving the ball (in which the Rules do not consider a player to have "addressed" the ball).

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