Is Ballyneal a Doak 10?

[Bart Bradley]

 

I am very taken with Ballyneal and will admit that I am going to see the course in a few weeks.  Kyle Henderson's thread is just adding to my fascination.  It sure looks to me that Ballyneal meets all the criteria to be a Doak 10.  Do you agree?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

How many Doak 10s can there be and how many Doak courses can be Doak 10s?

How many modern courses are Doak 10s?  Is PD a Doak 10? How about Cape Kidnappers?

In the Confidential Guide, Tom says that he can't give Sand Hills a 10 because he had only seen it once.  Is it a 10?  Tom, would you now give it a 10?

If Tom Doak wrote an updated version of The Guide  what courses would be 10s now that were not in 1996 and vice versa?

Discuss.


Bart

[RJ_Daley]

Brad, good luck with getting TD to answer THAT one!   

IMHO, Bally is a 10.  The balance of hole design, routing, use of land and blending of land and terrain to great golf corridors is outstanding.  The course is the most fun a fellow can have.  If one gets a chance, they should play BallyNeal, if only once in your life and if need be, go to considerable discomfort in travel to do so, (which is almost a given). 

I won't opine on how much financial discomfort one should go through, however.  That is a personal choice based on one's personal financial abilities.  I don't think anyone should sacrifice or not purchase something their home or family needs, to go to play any golf course.  For most, the trip by air or land to Bally is commitment enough in terms of effort for most people.  To go through that, is my interpretation of the idea of a 10 requiring some sacrifice and great effort to go there because it is that good, is an undertaking that will pay off in great golf and memories. 

IMHO, there should only be around ~25 10s in the world, and they shouldn't be ranked in any order. 

[Adam Clayman]

Since it is a Doak, he gets the Spinal Tap inspired 11. Which is of course betta.

[Chip Gaskins]

if ballyneal isn't a 10 then i would love to see what is....i can't imagine a course being much better

[Tom_Doak]

Bart:

I am not inclined to give any course a 10 until it's been around a few years and I'm really comfortable with its nuances.  Sadly, I haven't played Ballyneal (or Barnbougle) myself enough to make that claim.

I WOULD give Sand Hills a 10, a dozen years later.  I MIGHT give one to Pacific Dunes, but nobody is ever going to take my number on my own courses, anyway.

Since we built Pacific Dunes, I've had at least one good friend whose opinion I respect insist to me that Barnbougle, St. Andrews Beach, Sebonack, and Ballyneal were better than Pacific Dunes.  (Perhaps surprisingly, not Cape Kidnappers, but people are so mesmerized by the setting there that very few have really even commented on the golf course itself.)  Unfortunately, I haven't played any of them more than ten rounds myself, so I am not in a position to agree.  I HAVE played Pacific Dunes a lot, and I like it a lot.

[mike_beene]

Tom, my mind can get a little crazy,so feel free to ignore, but have you ever showed up to play a course you did and been asked for a green fee? Jeff?

[RJ_Daley]

Better yet... did you ever show up to play one of your courses incognito, maybe wear a wig and dye your hair ?

go on, give yourself a 10 on Bally, really. 

[Jim Colton]

if ballyneal isn't a 10 then i would love to see what is....i can't imagine a course being much better

Chip,

 That's the exact thought I had when playing Ballyneal for the first time.  I said to my buddy Jeff, 'How can golf courses possibly get any better than this?'  I'm sure there has to be some superior courses out there, but there aren't many, and they aren't by much.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom Doak, in your mind do you rank the courses you gave 10's to?  i.e. among the 10's, do you feel some are better than others?  Since you are a Golf Mag rater, I guess you do, at least when you do your ratings for GM. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mike B:  I've been asked to pay to play one of my own courses a couple of times.  I won't say where.  Most of my contracts have a clause about giving me a membership or letting us play for free, but not everyone on staff knows about it, especially years later.

RJ:  No wigs for me, but I don't really need one since I'm not exactly a household figure.  I've occasionally played with people without telling them I was the architect and they never guessed.  Not for a while now, though.

Jim N:  Anytime anybody asks me for what I think is the best course, I insist on giving them all 12 that got the perfect 10.  I really don't think there is such a thing as the #1 course.  For GOLF Magazine, they don't want us to vote for more than ten in the top ten, so I have to eliminate two ... and I'm not entirely consistent about which of them it must be.

[kconway]

what are the 12 courses rated a 10?

[Mark Bourgeois]

I think Tom rated one course above a 10.

[Michael Dugger]

St. Andrews
Royal Dornoch
Royal County Down
Ballybunion Old
Royal Melbourne
Cypress Point
Crystal Downs
Merion
NGLA
Shinnecock Hills
Pinehurst #2
Pine Valley

If memory serves me correct.

9's thusly, include....

Seminole
Augusta
Pebble Beach
SFCC
Riviera (I think)
Prairie Dunes
a few GB&I Links courses I'm sure I'm forgetting.....possibly Kingston Heath

[John Kirk]

Ballyneal is the Betelgeuse of golf course architecture, a red supergiant on the verge of supernova:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeuse

You didn't expect a serious response, did you?  I thought it was good enough to join when it was 50 stakes in the sand.

Ballyneal has surpassed Pacific Dunes as my favorite place to play for the following reasons:

1.  Private club with great comradery and new like-minded friends.

2.  The wind blows in two distinct directions during the playing season, with minor variations on a day-to-day basis.

3.  I tend to play Pacific Dunes the same way every time.  I'm much more likely to adjust my strategy from shot to shot at Ballyneal.  There's more strategic decision making there.

I'm happy for this thread, since poor Tom Doak wasn't getting enough attention these days.  Bring on the 8th hole discussion, Kyle!

[Tim Pitner]

Here's what I have regarding the distinction between a Doak 9 and a 10:

"9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately."

That's a pretty fine line and comparisons between the courses Doak previously rated as 9s and 10s can be pretty subjective. 

According to the above desriptions, I would say that Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes are both at least 9s and probably 10s.  IMO, they each have no weak holes, at least half the holes on each course are great and the courses as a whole are sublime. 

[brad_miller]

Very possible that Prairie Dunes could now be a 10 with some of the fine work, most importantly the chipping areas that have been created. But then that is TD's call. It is clearly better and more fun than it was in the 90's.

[tlavin]

Since it is a Doak, he gets the Spinal Tap inspired 11. Which is of course betta.

This post gets a Doak 10!

[Daryl David]

No doubt a 10.  "if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing"  That sums it up for me. 

A friend and I love to spend the sunsets at Ballyneal with a few adult beverages going hole by hole trying find at least one hole we can say is not world class.   Lucky for us it is an exercise in futility.  Every hole can stand on its own.  Each time I play I end up with a new "favorite" hole and can say honestly that I have no least favorite hole.  That is a unique experiece for me.

[Kyle Henderson]

Ballyneal has surpassed Pacific Dunes as my favorite place to play for the following reasons:


2.  The wind blows in two distinct directions during the playing season, with minor variations on a day-to-day basis.


I'm happy for this thread, since poor Tom Doak wasn't getting enough attention these days.  Bring on the 8th hole discussion, Kyle!

Professor Kirk:
I actually experienced variant wind conditions between rounds on the same day. My morning round started with the wind coming right into me on the first tee. My afternoon round started with the wind coming directly from right to left. If I had chosen to play a third time, the wind would have been directly behind me. There aren't many places I've been that feature a consitent, 90-degree shift in wind direction every ~4 hours!

Is that a common experience during your visits?

Note: The winds were very mild that day (and provided a very welcome cooling mechanism). As I never played from any teeing area more than once, it's hard to for me say how much longer/shorter each hole played in each wind. Truly, if graced by the opportunity to return, I would be most keen to try different pin positions as opposed to new weather conditions.


With regard to the entitled topic of this thread, I would give Ballyneal a 10.

As I am already expounding the specific playing qualities of Ballyneal on another thread, here I will base my opinion of Ballyneal purely upon my personal experience with courses that Mr. Doak has christened with ratings of 9 or better. That list includes Pebble Beach (viewed as a spectator during tournament play), Riviera (played on easter Sunday 2008 on foot with caddie), and Sand Hills (stayed there the night after my 36 holes at Ballyneal, played it the next morning).

IMHO:
Pebble Beach (Doak 9) has about 6 holes (1,2,3,12,13,15) that are clearly weaker than any found at Ballyneal.

Riviera (Doak 9?) has a few relatively weak holes (11,13,14... at least in there present form) and less interesting options around the greens than Ballyneal. Considering the vastly superior property Doak started with in Holyoke, it's amazing that Thomas could create something even worthy of comparison, but Ballyneal still gets the edge.

Sand Hills (Doak 10) has many similarities to Ballyneal, but the topography, putting surfaces, and short game requirements are entirely different. I might favor one course over the other in a hole-by-hole match play scenario, but it's hard to really pick one. If Doak doesn't rank his 10s, neither will I.

[Mark Chaplin]

Just realised I've played 5 of the 10s and never visited Ireland despite living an hour away!

[Matt MacIver]

Ballyneal's pictures are among the best advertisment I've ever seen, so I really hope the course is a 10, as most here say, want, etc. 

I've only played two 10s - TOC and Pinehurst - once apiece.  So without enough plays to form a detailed opinion...I don't think ALL the holes on #2s are must-sees (3, 7, 10...)

And while Pac Dunes is clearly in the top three that I've played, I don't think I would have missed much architecturally if #12 or 15 had been excluded. 

Is Tom's criteria for a 10 too severe?  Of course as we all know, the more courses you see (and the more often) the "better" the analysis CAN be.