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John Kirk

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 09:51:20 PM »
Torrey may not be a great course, but the first two days of the tournament, especially today, have been very good.  It has produced plenty of drama and an excellent leaderboard.  That counts for a lot in my book.

Matt Varney

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 11:53:36 PM »
I have been lucky enough to play both courses.  I rank Pebble Beach #1 over Torrey Pines only slightly because of the routing and the great stretch of holes along the ocean.  The cliffs at Torrey are sweet but, the course sits up high so the view is long and elevated out to the ocean.  From the moment you walk off #3 Green at Pebble and start walking to #4 Tee you realize how special Pebble Beach is as a golf course.  The par 3 #3 at Torrey South can't compare to the short par 3 #7 at Pebble.  That hour you spend playing #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 and #10 make the experience amazing.  Then as you get close to the end of your round you get one last taste playing #17 and #18 to finish your round.  If you have good weather Pebble is superior to Torrey any day of the week.

Its not all about the length and with the redesign by Rees Jones, the south course at Torrey is a great test for a US Open.  What makes Torrey so special is that it is a great championship caliber course owned by the city.  Its public you can call up get a tee time and play the course.

Torrey has the same appeal in my eyes just like Bethpage.  I think golf is much bigger than just very private clubs like Winged Foot, Medinah, Oakmont, Merion.  Torrey and Bethpage bring the game of golf at the highest level to the masses and that is a great thing for the game.

 

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2008, 02:21:27 AM »
Matt

If 4-10 really took you an hour to play that must have been a one-time 2.5 hour round at Pebble. You must have been first off the tee as a single. Anyone else play that stretch in an hour?  I'm thinking more like two hours. Not that it is a bad place to be for two hours.

Matt Varney

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2008, 10:09:39 AM »
TIm,

When I played Pebble I was the first tee time that morning at 7:00 am.  I was walking with a caddie and paired up with a couple guys that were riding in a cart.  It might have taken an hour and a half but then again it is 7 holes (4-10).  What makes Pebble so perfect is the flow of  the course and the proximity to the ocean. We played the course in just under 4 hours.

4,5 and 6 are nice but, 7,8,9 and 10 are world class.  Those golf holes are so unique and yet classic in their design.  It is golf, land and sea all coming together in perfect balance.  The day I played it was 70 degrees, sunny, no clouds and only a light breeze.  My wife was riding in a golf cart that day pregnant with our second child.  Every since that day she understands why I love golf so much because she was amazed by the beauty of Pebble Beach.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2008, 11:10:58 AM »
The scenery on the beach below are better at Torrey so give it one check mark there. ;)

To elaborate a small bit.....the majority of nudes @ Blacks Beach constitute 50-70 year old males playing horseshoes and/or frisbee. The balance of the mix includes the stray female, who may or may not be with a companion. Not a pretty scene.

The waves there are among the best on the West Coast. Surfing there when I was 15, broke the leash on my surfboard....board washes to shore. As I'm making my way in, some dude grabs the board and paddles it out to me....in the buff.

Also, if you've ever walked "up" the cliffs with an older naked guy walking "down" the cliffs, it's as close to hell as one can get.

You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Jim Nugent

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2008, 12:34:24 PM »

But during yesterday's coverage on Sky Sports, both Bruce Critchley and Ewen Murray (The lead commentators) described Torrey as a "far better" course than Pebble...


I'm curious why they think that.  Because it's more "fair"? 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2008, 12:40:59 PM »

But during yesterday's coverage on Sky Sports, both Bruce Critchley and Ewen Murray (The lead commentators) described Torrey as a "far better" course than Pebble...


I'm curious why they think that.  Because it's more "fair"? 

More likely just guys trying to make themselves feel clever by taking the more unusual position.

A few years ago, someone wrote a really funny story in Golf Magazine about a guy who goes around, touting the less highly regarded course at many multi course clubs/resorts. "Yeah, WF West is great, but WF East is the really]/i] great course. Same thing with Merion West, Pinehurst #4 (or 7 or 8, I can't remember), etc."

I wonder if that guy is a GCAer. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2008, 01:18:03 PM »

But during yesterday's coverage on Sky Sports, both Bruce Critchley and Ewen Murray (The lead commentators) described Torrey as a "far better" course than Pebble...


I'm curious why they think that.  Because it's more "fair"? 

More likely just guys trying to make themselves feel clever by taking the more unusual position.

A few years ago, someone wrote a really funny story in Golf Magazine about a guy who goes around, touting the less highly regarded course at many multi course clubs/resorts. "Yeah, WF West is great, but WF East is the really]/i] great course. Same thing with Merion West, Pinehurst #4 (or 7 or 8, I can't remember), etc."

I wonder if that guy is a GCAer. :)

this could be close to the truth... the old favourite "people say if pebble was 70 miles inland, it would be just another course" was mentioned...

...of course, no mention of which people...

...anyway, i'm only second guessing the commentators... i'd be interested to know how they came to their conclusions... ewen murray at least was a fine golfer and has his hand in a few designs i believe...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2008, 02:57:40 PM »
As I recall, Mr. Lavin's comments on a similar thread received a full endorsement from Bob Huntley, so I should be careful.

But are #6 and #7 at PBGL world class?  They are certainly scenic, but difficult?  Really?  Is TPS #9 a less demanding hole than PB's #6?  How about TPS 3 from Thursday's front tees vs. PB 7?  Form over substance?  Is there a hole in golf that's more one dimensional than PB #7?  I know, Venturi talks about hitting 4-irons into 35+mph winds on that hole.  Would he need a driver at TPS #3 in comparable conditions?

Are PB's #9 and #10 (are they not a bit repetitive?) greater than TPS's #4?  Or as a combo, both heading south with the same left to right ground movement, are they better than TPS's #4 and #5 going in the opposite direction and rewarding different shot patterns?

Take the par 3s as a group, is PB #17 a more demanding hole than either TPS #11 or #16?  Is PB #5 a better hole than TPS #3 or #8?  I think not (though I have not played the new PB #5); not to say about the routing disruption it creates (the walk-back to #6 tee).  Is PB #12 better than TPS #8, 11 or 16?  I think not.

As for the par 5s, PB #14 is the best on both courses, primarily because of the green complex.  No doubt that PB #18 is prettier than TPS #18, but is it really more difficult or strategic for the professionals?  I don't have the figures, but I suspect that twice as many go for the green at TPS than at PB (wouldn't this make TPS's more strategic?).  True, the pond can't match the Pacific visually, but what can?  As noted earlier, I don't consider PB's #6 any more challenging or difficult than TPS #9, though PB once again gets the nod for aesthetics.  The converted (to par 4s) holes, PB #2 and TPS #6 are at best a wash, with a slight nod perhaps to TPS.

How does PB compare in the par 4s?  I concede that 8, 9, 10, and 16 are top shelve.  But 1, 2, 13, and 15 are rather ordinary.  Is the TPS group of #s 4, 5, 12, 14, and 15 a lesser challenge than the best PB can provide?  I think TPS's #s 1, 2, 6, 10, and 17 are better than the second tier PB par 4s.

Three things are indisputable.  One, PB is a superior site with much more immediate ocean frontage.  Two, PB is much shorter, and, in some camps, short is beautiful, long is garrish and unnecessary.  Three, as a collorary to two, PB's greens are smaller with more internal contouring.  Additionally, much higher construction and maintenance budgets as well as the upscale surroundings make PB among the highest rated courses.

Unlike some others here, I don't find TPS boring or uninteresting.  I would suggest that those who claim that there is no strategy at TPS perhaps don't understand what strategy is.  Thus far, a lot of credit is being given to course setup.  In my opinion, the fact that they don't have to trick-up the course to conduct the tournament speaks well of the design.  TPS may not be PB, but it ain't chop liver either.

As to better utilization of the property closest to the ocean, where and how?  I don't see that there's much stable ground that's usable, and if there is, I suspect that the CCC and Big Environment would have a few choice words to say about that.

BTW, how do I get one of those $42 rounds that the announcer talked about last couple of days? 


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