Ballyliffin Query

[Doug Wright]

I asked a learned GCA.com source this question offline but got indifferent [No emoticons used in deference to Messrs. Huntley and Kelly] answers so thought I'd ask the wider audience.

Ballyliffin has two courses, the Old and the Glashedy. We will be there for one day in September. From a golf architecture perspective, should we play (a) two rounds on the Old course, (b) two rounds on Glashedy or (c) one on each? In other words, is one course architecturally superior enough to the other that we should play it to the exclusion of the other?

Thanks.
 

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, I think Ward Peyronnin was there last fall after the Walker Cup.  Maybe he will see this or you  can find a post of his on the board.  I don't know which his group played but he loved it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug:

Most here will likely answer (a).  The Old course is quirkier and an authentic old links, and many have issues with the Glashedy.

Of course I shall go against the grain.  I will say the Glashedy has a hole with a pond that is out of character for links golf, but the tee is also perched on a sand dune and thus the shot is rather thrilling!  I found the Glashedy to be great fun and I am not at all certain the Old is superior.  In any case I have to believe it's close enough such that missing the Glashedy in favor of two rounds on the Old would not be optimum.

So put me down for (c).

TH

[Les Cordes]

doug..i am an overseas member at ballyliffen....you should play both courses...they are both interesting and totally different...glashedy is an excellent course..very beautiful with occasionally narrow fairways and hidden bunkers...my irish friends and i prefer playing the back tees...which one seldom sees..but the views from the back are spectacular and both courses open up nicely in front of you. ...the old course will host the irish senior open in june...and glashedy has hosted a number of pro-ams, qualifiers, etc......other area courses worth playing (among a wide selection) are portstewart and royal portrush....les

[Mike Leveille]

Doug:

I would vote for 2 rounds on the Old.  Glashedy is OK, and certainly is better than some other modern links courses that seem too manufactured for my tastes, but it is not as enjoyable as the Old, which is a very good links course.

If you are looking for a bonus round on your way up to Ballyliffin, consider a quick 9 or 18 at NorthWest GC in Buncrana.  We saw NW beside the road on our way up to Ballyliffin and stopped in for a quick 9 (played the front).  Not a great links by any means, but a number of fine holes and a lot of fun.  Perhaps it was because we had no expectations, but several members of our group enjoyed NW more than Glashedy and either course at Rosapenna.  Like I said, we only played the front 9, so for all I know the back 9 is a real clunker.

Whatever you decide, you are heading to one of the most beautiful golfing regions I have ever seen.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, I hope you are playing the four that are centered on Coleraine: Portrush Dunluce and Valley, Portstewart, and the sleeper of the group, Castlerock.

I mention Coleraine because it's the central town there and has an outstanding Chinese restaurant, the Water Garden.   Very, very good Peking Duck. 

[Brad Tufts]

I say one at each.  The Old is a winner for sure, and you may think so about the Glashedy as well.  It seems to be interesting in that it polarizes...

[Greg Ohlendorf]

I would suggest that you play both. They both have their respective highs and lows, but were well worth playing on our way  to Northern Ireland. We played almost all of the links courses from Shannon up the west coast and found each to be interesting in their own right. Enniscrone and Carne were especially worthy, especially given their respective green fees. The courses were all very accommodating as well. At Ballyliffin, we played in an absolute downpour most of the 36 hole day, but the Guinness in the hotel afterwards looking over the sea was a great end to the day. In short, there is no absolute reason to choose one over the other, so enjoy them both!

[Ally Mcintosh]

I say play both as well... There are some very worthy holes on the Glashedy...

Maybe someone can answer the following questions ( I may have asked these before....)?

When the Glashedy was built, it used some land of the Old Course... Which holes were lost and do you think this reduced the enjoyment / quality of the Old Course?.... In addition, Faldo Design have done recent work on The Old Course to improve it... What have they done and have they improved it?

Thanks,
Ally

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am probaly in the minority but was disappointed with the Old couse when I played it.  To make Glashedy they had to change some of the old course.  I really like Glashedy, pond and all.  Pat Ruddy likes to have a controversial hole.  And it is one.  I don't think it is out of place.  Why can't it have a pond? He didn't design it to be an old links but one that is built today.  The first three holes are brutes.  Get past them and the course wanders through some very good dunesland.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I like the "architecturally speaking" angle and would interpret it as follows.

Which would provide a richer architectural learning experience:

1. A first round on the Glashedy after playing the Old, or vice versa. How would the playing of the other enrich the learning experience? Would certain themes be repeated? Is either course so shallow or lacking in architectural lessons that a single pass is sufficient to absorb all or most of its lessons?

2. Repeat round on the same course. Would either course yield a richer learning experience the second time through? How so? What might one miss or fail to fully appreciate the first time round?

Seems to me that if option 1 is better then there's not a lot on offer, strictly architecturally speaking, at the course in question; otherwise how can playing two courses - any courses - once offer a superior architectural education to playing the same course twice? Isn't repetition critical to any type of learning or appreciation?

Again, speaking strictly architecturally. I can see how variety is fun etc...

Mark

[Doug Wright]

Doug, I hope you are playing the four that are centered on Coleraine: Portrush Dunluce and Valley, Portstewart, and the sleeper of the group, Castlerock.

Bill,

Yes each of those is on the itinerary. Thanks.

[J_ Crisham]

I would play both course as they vary in the amount of dips and rolls in the fairways-a very significant factor in playing these courses. I would add playing Rosses Point on the way up if you are making the drive from Shannon. Also ,Carne is a must-the wild ,wooly dunes of Western Mayo are hard to beat! Have fun, Jack

[Doug Wright]

I like the "architecturally speaking" angle and would interpret it as follows.

Which would provide a richer architectural learning experience:

1. A first round on the Glashedy after playing the Old, or vice versa. How would the playing of the other enrich the learning experience? Would certain themes be repeated? Is either course so shallow or lacking in architectural lessons that a single pass is sufficient to absorb all or most of its lessons?

2. Repeat round on the same course. Would either course yield a richer learning experience the second time through? How so? What might one miss or fail to fully appreciate the first time round?

Seems to me that if option 1 is better then there's not a lot on offer, strictly architecturally speaking, at the course in question; otherwise how can playing two courses - any courses - once offer a superior architectural education to playing the same course twice? Isn't repetition critical to any type of learning or appreciation?

Again, speaking strictly architecturally. I can see how variety is fun etc...

Mark

Thanks all for the replies above. I particularly like Mark's views on the subject quoted above. However, I think the discerning student of GCA can get a good feel about the architecture of a course from a "single pass" regardless of the quality. Of course, multiple plays are required to fully appreciate the work.

From the comments above and the views of my behind the scenes correspondent, I've decided that we will play each one. Since the courses are adjacent, it will be interesting to compare and contrast the new and the old.  I will report back in these pages upon our return.

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, I hope you are playing the four that are centered on Coleraine: Portrush Dunluce and Valley, Portstewart, and the sleeper of the group, Castlerock.

Bill,

Yes each of those is on the itinerary. Thanks.

Great itinerary.  Don't miss the Water Garden.