[Dan Herrmann]

I was driving past a potential golf course site (Applecross, possibly a Michael Nicklaus design), and I started wondering if architects have "non-compete" contracts within a general geographic area.

For example, say C&C designs a course in Baltimore.  Would the contract preclude them from designing another course in the Baltimore/Washington area? 

Let's take Hidden Creek in Egg Harbor Twp, NJ.  A wonderful C&C design.  The club is non-equity, and they're looking for members.  I promise the owner wouldn't want another C&C course within 100 miles - he's got a unique "product" and I'm sure he wouldn't want to lose his exclusivity.

Did golden age architects have anything in this area?  I'd think not, seeing how many Ross courses area in Rochester NY, or how many Flynn are here in SE Pennsylvania.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dan,

I don't know the answer to your specific question, but even without a contract, I'm pretty sure a classy guy like Bill Coore, for example, has run it by a past client when approached to design another new course nearby. It's simply a thoughtful courtesy, to get the past client's thoughts on the situation, to start; and then to possibly decline the potential new job if in fact it could have a detrimental effect on the past client in question.

If I'm ever in such a situation, I plan to do the same. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Jeff,
I'm sure 99% of architects would do the same today.

I wonder if Flynn or Ross (using them as examples) would've gotten the OK from their initial client in an area back in the day.

[John Foley]

Supposedly Fazio had an agreement w/ Steve Wynn that he would not do another course in Las Vegas after Shadow Creek.

I was told that is why his courses at Primm Valley are across the stateline in CA.

[mike_beene]

No wonder Vegas golf keeps getting better.

[Scott Stambaugh]

Dan,

I don't know the answer to your specific question, but even without a contract, I'm pretty sure a classy guy like Bill Coore, for example, has run it by a past client when approached to design another new course nearby. It's simply a thoughtful courtesy, to get the past client's thoughts on the situation, to start; and then to possibly decline the potential new job if in fact it could have a detrimental effect on the past client in question.

If I'm ever in such a situation, I plan to do the same. 

Really?  Let me get this straight- Someone within a certain geographic area likes your work at a neighboring course, offers you a job and your reply would be something like- "I appreciate the offer, but let me check with the club across town and see if they approve before I sign a contract worth a substantial amount of money..."

Am I missing something here?  What other profession is this even fathomable? 

[Bob_Huntley]

I could be wrong,  but I think Jack Nicklaus declined to be considered for the job of the redoing of the MPCC Shore Course because of the proximity of his Pradera G.C. on nearby Hiway 68.

Bob

[Reef Wilson]

What other profession is this even fathomable? 

the concert business has clauses like this in contracts. for example a band playing a show in San Francisco might be prohibited from playing a show in Oakland or a similar distance away within 60 days before or after so as not to hurt the show in SF.

[Mike Benham]

Many professions and typically executives or business owners, that as their business is bought out, are paid a non-compete fee that prevents them from competing in the same industry as the business they sold.  The non-competes also serve the purpose of a way to distribute some of the value of the purchase of the business over a period of time which might allow certain tax advantages.

If I recall, the California courts have ruled that most not competes are not defensible unless the payment is substantial, essentially equal to the income that the individual most likely would have earned if they had stayed in the industry.

[Tom_Doak]

There are few such clauses actually signed.  One of the reasons is that when you sign a new project, you're not sure when or even if it will get built, so how can you pass up other contracts on that basis?

However, as Jeff alluded, once an architect gets to a certain status (and price point) and his good name is a key part of the marketing effort, it is common courtesy to not take another job close by.  Sometimes it's difficult, too, when you realize there is a better-looking girl who is interested in you.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Certainly it isn't the case for the loads of regional architects who do most of their work in a tight area!  And its not really a problem in most cases.

As TD says, you might get asked that if you are a top name. I have heard that JN originally had that kind of thing in his agreements, but as work picked up, he realized it was impossible to handcuff himself that way business wise.

I am sure he considers it on a case by case basis, but doesn't turn work down all that often. 

[paul cowley]

I have been familiar with a few over the years......typically most seemed to be for periods of 5 to 10 years and involve radii of 35 to 50 miles.

[Peter Pallotta]

"...It is common courtesy to not take another job close by.  Sometimes it's difficult, too, when you realize there is a better-looking girl who is interested in you"

Tom - yes, but if I'm remembering my highschool days right, the better-looking girl was interested mostly because another girl already had first dibs.

Peter 

[Matt MacIver]

What other profession is this even fathomable? 

Any franchise, from McDonalds to Exxon, would be a somewhat similar analogy, revenue protection being the key. 

[fred ruttenberg]

The California law mentioned above only applies to employees. Such contracts are looked at by courts everywhere more closely. Commercial contract (often involving the sale of a business) are more likely to be upheld.  Courts use a reasonableness standard.  Suppose Tiger says I will only do one course in a state and my fee is $25 million.  I would expect a court to enforce that contract provision.

[Kalen Braley]

While not a new concept to me, I am surprised this applies to this industry mostly due to the few jobs available combined with the length each job takes from start to finish.

The common courtesy rule must be an unwritten one.  In Park City, Jack designed a course at Promontory and now has a project going just 15 miles down the road in Heber City.  In the SLC area Gene Bates has done a whole bunch of courses, two of them only 10 miles apart.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there in other cities as well.

PS.  Post edited...I would concur same Client is not a good example.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

I am designing a second course right next to one of my own, but it's FOR THE SAME CLIENT, so that's hardly a good example.

And, if you've noticed, it's being marketed under the name of a dead architect instead of my own, because I've already done one next door.  That's how important marketing is to the new generation of developers, and that's why they want non-compete agreements, even if they rarely get put to paper.

[Cory Brown]

Kalen,

Do you know anything about the new Nicklaus course in Heber City, I believe it is called Red Ledges.  I've looked at it on their website, but don't know much about it.  Thanks.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Do you know anything about the new Nicklaus course in Heber City, I believe it is called Red Ledges.  I've looked at it on their website, but don't know much about it.  Thanks.

Cory,

Thats pretty much what I know as well.  I've heard its a 18 hole project by some, and 36 from others.  Either way, the Park City area is turning into a real mecca of sorts for high altitude quality golfing.  There are currently 12-14 courses all within 15 miles of each other and 3-4 more set to be in place over the next 3-4 years.  That seems like a lot of courses for what is at best a 6 month golf season.  And this year with this winter that won't quit, its looking more like a 4 month golf season.

[Randy Thompson]

If your charging under half a million does the client even have the right to ask for such a clause? I was involved with a Nicklaus project in the last three years and the owner asked for a non compete in a twenty five mile radius and they agreed and had it put in writting. A year later the Nicklaus group signed a contract about fifteen miles away. There was a time limit on the non compete and they justified thier actions saying the course wouldn´t be opened for play until after the time limit expired. The bottom line, I think they hurt the original client in relations to sales but not too much, it easier to sell a reality then it is a perception. Takes a lot of Ethics to walk away from a two million dollar fee even if one has some eighty projects in differnet phases of developmen but for some golf design is a business nothing more and in business you have to harvest the hay when the sun is shining.

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