[Andy Hughes]

Matt, are you slowly coming around to the charms of old quirkies like Water Gap, Glenbrook etc?   

[Sean_A]

Lest we forget, I do believe that a significant, if not majority of UK golfers do not like a lot of funk.  This is a tendency which I see in The States as well.  I would also point out that I think much of what was considered funky back in the day is now just considered classic.  By that I mean, archies started to build lots of interesting aspects in courses - especially greens.  At the time, say 1920, those greens must have seemed pretty wild, but with a solid foundation and precedent.  I tell, most Brits are blown away by some of the wild greens in The States which Americans just take for granted.  The actual holdover of truly funky holes/elements - after many have been bulldozed and many now just considered classic - is not all that much.  We can go through the same cycle now and I bet the same thing would happen.  People's attitudes change over time and what was old eventually becomes new.  I don't think American funk is held to a different standard, its just that funky courses are relatively more abundant and easier to access in the UK than many in The States. 

Ciao

[Andy Hughes]

Sean, what would most UKers think of a Cruden Bay or North Berwick?

[Matt_Ward]

Michael W:

Agree with your definition of quirk -- no need for the big item. Wolf Creek presents a wider variety of those smaller situations than many might surmise. The unexpected is part of the package when playing there. Those expecting 100% fairness will not be happy campers.

Andy:

I would not define what you find at Water Gap and Glenbrook as quirk -- likely there's another adjective I would use to highlight what you find there. No doubt those who enjoy playing there can rest assured that they won't need to worry about me and my gang taking a tee time from anyone who embraces that sort "creative" design.

Jason:

You doubt it.

C'mon wake up my good man.

If I moved the exact Klondyke and Dell holes and situated them directly in Mesquite, Nevada it's highly likely -- if not downright certain -- that the same people who bitch and moan about what's already there at Wolf Creek would CONTINUE to say the very same thing.

Location is a big part of the inherent nature in which people define quality golf. There are way too many people on this site who automatically give the benefit of doubt to any course in Ireland and simply pan anything that has a zip code indicating Nevada.

Let me also point out that the playability argument is not without issue with Klondyke and Dell. Both have elements that can easily limit recovery options -- in similar ways to what you find at Wolf Creek.

Your understanding of Wolf Creek is also a bit foggy. There are plenty of recovery options that go beyond the ill-informed notion you present that all such situations require a drop. I don't doubt that the environmental sensitive areas are an issue -- but only for those who are so WILD as to reach them in the sheer majority of cases.

In the holes I mentioned previously architect Rider included an array of different design features that elevate the holes into more than just a spot occupying terrain in the desert.

Jason, keep in mind, that Wolf Creek works best as a match play venue - the stroke play devotees will never enjoy tallying up all their efforts there.

[Andy Hughes]

I would not define what you find at Water Gap and Glenbrook as quirk -- likely there's another adjective I would use to highlight what you find there. No doubt those who enjoy playing there can rest assured that they won't need to worry about me and my gang taking a tee time from anyone who embraces that sort "creative" design.

'Creative'--I like that!

PS If you took the 7th hole at Glenbrook, moved it to Engineers and called it '2 or 20', everyone would love it 

[Jason Topp]

Michael W:


Jason:

You doubt it.

C'mon wake up my good man.

If I moved the exact Klondyke and Dell holes and situated them directly in Mesquite, Nevada it's highly likely -- if not downright certain -- that the same people who bitch and moan about what's already there at Wolf Creek would CONTINUE to say the very same thing.

Location is a big part of the inherent nature in which people define quality golf. There are way too many people on this site who automatically give the benefit of doubt to any course in Ireland and simply pan anything that has a zip code indicating Nevada.

Let me also point out that the playability argument is not without issue with Klondyke and Dell. Both have elements that can easily limit recovery options -- in similar ways to what you find at Wolf Creek.

Matt:

We are at impasse yet again.

I appreciate your efforts to root out bias on the board but I think reality is more subtle than the broad brush conclusions you reach. 

I have heard many people rave about the dell at Erin Hills for example.  I also recall a "should have thought inside the bun" review.  I have never seen the hole so I do not know how it compares to the original.

On another note, I'm looking forward to seeing Vista Verde this weekend based on your glowing reviews. 

[Tim Pitner]

If I moved the exact Klondyke and Dell holes and situated them directly in Mesquite, Nevada it's highly likely -- if not downright certain -- that the same people who bitch and moan about what's already there at Wolf Creek would CONTINUE to say the very same thing.

Location is a big part of the inherent nature in which people define quality golf. There are way too many people on this site who automatically give the benefit of doubt to any course in Ireland and simply pan anything that has a zip code indicating Nevada.

Matt,

I think people are more willing to accept quirk on an older course than a newer one; I don't think it's so much of a regional, GB&I versus USA issue as you've characterized it.  Older courses in the U.S. tend to have more quirk than newer ones and golfers generally accept that.  When quirk is attempted on a newer course, it's more likely to be viewed as contrived or trying too hard.  My experience is that's often the case. 

[Sean_A]

Sean, what would most UKers think of a Cruden Bay or North Berwick?

A

I think in general, most would be luke warm on both courses.  Some would be ardent supporters and fewer would be anti.  I say "would be" for these answers because many, many UK golfers have not played either course and have no intention to do so, but to be fair part of this is due to the cost of green fees.  For many hard core golfers (ie club members), the thought of dishing out 1/10th or 1/8th of their membership dues for a round of golf just doesn't appeal.  Having said that, NB & CB don't have nearly the pull as a championship course and I believe NB and CB would not fair well against all or nearly all current Open courses in a poll of punters. I am afraid, where these things are concerned, most Brits are like Yanks, they equate tough with good.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Michael W:

I hear what you say but the notion that quirk is only acceptable on "older" courses is really nothing more than a bias towards such courses and against anything that is newer.

Wolf Creek has plenty of quirk in a number of different spots -- no doubt man's hand put it there in nearly all instances -- it's also not an old course but the sheer age -- or lack thereof -- should not preclude courses from being thought of as having quirk within their confines.

The issue is not whether the course is old or not -- or that it is slight or significant amt of quirk from either a naturally induced situation or from man's hands -- but does it work in adding another dimension of enjoyment when playing there.

Jason:

No broad brush assertions from my end -- just witnessing the constant hugging and easy love given to courses overseas (e.g. UK and Ireland) while a general disdain for those courses that are quite edgy here in the States and elsewhere. The same can be said of plenty of northeast I-95 corridor layouts too.

Keep in mind that Lahinch's Dell would be fine if they didn't have haylike rough occupying the hills that abut the hole - on my last visit such grass was that high and was taken to a mere few paces just off the putting surfaces. If you think recoverying is possible from such situations then I think you are applying one standard from layouts in certain locations and simply dismissing those from others.

Be interested in your take on Vista Verde but it helps to have played other superb desert area courses as well. If time allows play the public Verrado in Buckeye. I really enjoy the original 18 at Whisper Rock as well but it's private. If Vista Verde had a favored architectural name attached to its credits it's my take the fanfare and notice would be even more so. Nonetheless, I like what Ken Kavanaugh did there and the putting greens are really some of the most vexing you will find in the Valley of the Sun.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
I have not read the posts on this thread but isn't the answer (if there is one) in part a function of your definition of quirk?  That definition depends a lot on what you have seen and what you believe is quirky.  We proposed a really cool shared bunker complex in a master plan for a course in Northern NJ.  The idea met with some resistance at first because it was viewed as quirky or gimmicky, but once we pointed out that a similar shared bunker was part of the early design, an HH Barker course I might add (the architect who laid out Merion  ) it was much better received. 

While some golfers and critics especially in the U.S. will never like quirk, I am convinced that there are a few architects out there today that could plant a tree in a bunker surround it with water and put it in the middle of a green and it would be accepted because so and so did it therefore it has to be ok  
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

My definition of quirk is something that allows random chance to be a part of the overall experience when playing a course. However, too many Americans believe that 100% fairness is central to the game of golf here in the States but then when they go overseas they wax poetic when they play courses over there. Candidly, if the Dell and Klondyke holes were in the States the amount of wincing and overall objections would be far more intense. Like I said -- take those specific Irish courses and transport them immediately to Wolf Creek and the reaction you get about Wolf Creek from its detractors now would remain firmly in place.

I've had the good fortune in playing courses across the pond and many, many new ones here in the USA. In fact, I would dare say that my experiences are quite varied and truly diverse in terms of overall diversity.

Mark, many golfers go with what they know. If the overall experiences are limited to the predictable American designs of razor-cut fairways with pedestrian bunker complexes that routinely flank each green and putting surfaces that are merely discs in terms of their configuration then the probability such folks will readily embrace such creative inclusions into a design is likely going to be limited.

My point on this thread, which you should read to gain a real flow for what has been said from the get-go, is that American courses, even the newest of types, can and do have such quirk elements within their routings. The idea that the best type of quirk is only found in old layouts -- whether they be across the pond or those within the I-95 corridor in the Northeast, is really not so from my perspective.

The issue is that American quirk is so readily dismissed as being goofy or a high-handed attempt is really a sad commentary because it fails to realize that such inclusions can work quite well and I have listed a few courses where such elements have been added (I also don't believe the argument that "real" quirk is something that comes only from Mother Nature and can't be added by the direct involvement of man's hands as some have suggested in this discussion.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Sean, what would most UKers think of a Cruden Bay or North Berwick?

A

I think in general, most would be luke warm on both courses.  Some would be ardent supporters and fewer would be anti.  I say "would be" for these answers because many, many UK golfers have not played either course and have no intention to do so, but to be fair part of this is due to the cost of green fees.  For many hard core golfers (ie club members), the thought of dishing out 1/10th or 1/8th of their membership dues for a round of golf just doesn't appeal.  Having said that, NB & CB don't have nearly the pull as a championship course and I believe NB and CB would not fair well against all or nearly all current Open courses in a poll of punters. I am afraid, where these things are concerned, most Brits are like Yanks, they equate tough with good.

Ciao

I've played North Berwick several times with a group of mates and also Cruden Bay.  Views on both were mixed.  Several don't like blind holes, particularly par 3s (CB 15th). The blind approach to "Perfection" (14th at NB) also comes in for criticism.  However most love the wall at NB (13th green) and will happily have putts from all over the 16th green once completing the hole.  I suspect there is an element of novelty about these holes for most golfers who only play them as holiday golf and they would soon complain if they had to play them every week with card & pencil.

I think courses such as NB & CB are accepted in the UK as they are seen as "natural" due to their age.  If they were to be built now with the same features then they would be seen as gimmicky.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Don't forget, I do quite a bit of work with a guy who build those greens at Peacock Gap    Have you seen them yet 
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

I'll be returning to the Poconos area sometime soon. Clearly, a major move has been made on a range of fronts to upgrade the sorry state of affairs that calls itself golf there and if that's the case then it's certainly worth a look to find out for sure.

[Jason Topp]

Michael W:


Keep in mind that Lahinch's Dell would be fine if they didn't have haylike rough occupying the hills that abut the hole - on my last visit such grass was that high and was taken to a mere few paces just off the putting surfaces. If you think recoverying is possible from such situations then I think you are applying one standard from layouts in certain locations and simply dismissing those from others.

Be interested in your take on Vista Verde but it helps to have played other superb desert area courses as well. If time allows play the public Verrado in Buckeye. I really enjoy the original 18 at Whisper Rock as well but it's private. If Vista Verde had a favored architectural name attached to its credits it's my take the fanfare and notice would be even more so. Nonetheless, I like what Ken Kavanaugh did there and the putting greens are really some of the most vexing you will find in the Valley of the Sun.

Matt

On the Dell - when I played it there was reasonable chance to hit a shot from the hay.

On Vista Verde -I have a pretty good breadth of experience with desert courses because because my parents lived in Tucson for 20 years, I went to ASU and I have gotten to play most of the publics and some of the privates in Scottsdale, including Chiricaua and Estancia.  Unlike many here I really like desert golf on a good course so I will give it a fair shake.

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