[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I was referencing CBM-SR-CB templates, not AWT's, which, I don't know if I'd qualify as templates since they weren't reproduced to the degree that the above three architects were.

The Short, Biarritz, Redan, Punchbowl, Alps, Road, Eden, Plateau and Double Plateau seem to have survived quite well.

There are very few of these holes that have been altered beyond recognition.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

I had an idea that is what you meant, but your original premise was quite non-specific which is why I challenged it. Still, that is why I also referenced the "cape" hole at WFW, one that CBM did as well, and how much it has been altered.

The reason I think that is important in this discussion is because the "template" holes of CBM & others were still just copies of the original template holes in the UK.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Irrespective of whether CBM's holes were replicas, interpretations, or a new, modified version, the template concept or theme is well understood by most.

In my limited experience, most templates remain mostly intact.

I can't think of any that have been substantively altered with the possible exception of the lost contouring (thumbprint) on # 17 at The Creek.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

"Irrespective of whether CBM's holes were replicas, interpretations, or a new, modified version, the template concept or theme is well understood by most..."

So are you now limiting your premise even further to only consider CBM?

I brought up the original challenge because you made a very broad statement as a truism that I felt wasn't. This caused you to adjust your definition and I once again felt it was a bit too broad.

It may very well be that most of CBM's (& others) template holes have undergone very few changes over the years, but I would think that it should be first established whether or not it is true. Only then can a real case be made for exactly why this is the case.

For example, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Redan's have a history of almost no changes other than green sizes due to maintenance practices. Would this be because of the superiority of design or because par-threes provide fewer reasons to a green committee to change simply based upon size and limited options.

I believe you have actually asked an important question. I just think it needs to be examined under a more critical light...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

In terms of design philosophy, architectural partnerships and the concept of template holes, CBM, SR and CB are inextricably wedded.

If you feel that I've posed an important question there's no need to parse every phrase or word, especially since my recent threads would appear to be interrelated, with CBM, Raynor and Banks the common denominator.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

This doesn't have much to do with anything because of the reasons it happened but I'll tell you about one Macd/Raynor template hole that's destroyed.

There is a great big, really big, old Biarritz sitting out behind the maintenance building at Shinnecock with about ten tons of sand on top of it.

And then, of course, there's the everlasting mystery of the present Redan on Shinnecock and whose it really is---Macdonald/Raynor's or Flynn's redesign! And don't go trying to tell me you know the answer to it because you don't. Nobody really does no matter how or how much they might claim they do!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The Biarritz wasn't singled out for destruction at Shinnecock.

It was amongst a number of holes that were abandoned

[JESII]

I haven't read all of this thread, but my first impression would be that the templates are so obviously constructed that any alteration could not just blend in...it would have to be noticed. Green committees may have made several errors through the years, and I bet the majority of them were begun with the idea that they'll just blend it in and nobody will notice a thing...can't happen so easily with template style holes...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I'd agree that it would have probably required an all or nothing alteration.

Although, the horseshoe contour in the 17th at The Creek was removed.

Hopefully, they'll restore it.  

And, show off the skyline green at # 5, just like the skyline green at # 5 at Sleepy Hollow

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