[JC Jones]

In a recent GD article about Michigan golf, the author says that Forest Dunes is "Michigan's Pine Valley."

I have not played either (athough I play to play FD this summer) so I cannot comment as to the accuracy of this remark.

I do, however, find it to be unlikely that there are many comparisions in any manner, be it the way it was designed/constructed to the routing to the actual holes.

Thoughts?

[Chris_Blakely]

I would think Lakewood Shores - Blackshire course or the Dunes 9 holer would be more Pine Valley - eque than Forest Dunes.

[Jay Flemma]

Chris, I'd have to disagree...I really don't think Forest Dunes looks like Pine valley, it looks more like PV than Lakewood Shores does.  The front nine at FD is parkland, but the back looks remarkably like either Mike Strantz designed it.

Lakewood looks completely different, more open, fewer trees, minimal walks between tees and greens.  Old and scruffy as opposed to FD which is more modern and has cleaner lines.  That being said, they were fun to play in the same day.

[David Neveux]

First things first, I really cannot comment on whether a course looks, feels, plays like Pine Valley as I have never seen or played the course (outside of a few pictures).  Same goes with Augusta National, as I have never been there in person.  I would say that judging by the pictures I have seen of Pine Valley, Keisers' Dunes Club would be a much closer comparison.  

A few notes on F.D.  I have played probably 10 rounds out there.  I make it a point to visit at least once a season, usually on a day trip from Lansing, to play 36 holes.  Year in and year out they have the smoothest, fastest, greens (with plenty of contour) in the state hands down.  They're arent my favorite greens in the state (Crystal Downs, Kingsly Club, Lost Dunes, High Pointe) but they are close.  It is definitely a solid course and is a real treat to play.  I would recommend it to anyone who is traveling through the Roscommon area or within a half days drive.  I don't know how dramatic the elevation changes are at pine valley (judging by the pictures, it looks to have a decent amount of movement) but Forest Dunes is virtually flat, IMHO. Lastly, I would like to echo Mr. Flemma's thoughts as to the cleaner lines comment.  In appearance the waste area's presented at FD are  very "clean" looking.  The front nine is rather narrow off the tee, and again I cannot comment on how that compares to PV.  

In comparison, the Dunes Club waste area's are very rugged looking.  I definitely think that it is a much more desireable look, and a much closer copy to PV than FD.  They have one or two holes, the 2nd I believe(par 5) where the waste area completely cuts off the fairway, and forces the golfer to carry these areas on both the second and third shot (unless he goes for it, which as the caddies will advise you is quite risky).  That hole really reminded me of PV, from the limited pictures I have seen.  

I have not played LWS Blackshire so I cannot comment although I have heard people or advertisement who bill it as a PV look-alike.  The article mentioned sounds more like a "special advertising" section than a real article.  I have also heard F.D. billed as a cross between Augusta National and Pine Valley.  There can be no doubt that such a statement is meant to draw those golfers who like hear labels that bill a course up to something it's not.  For example, how many people do you know would rather opt. for a Nicklaus Signature (The Bear) over a Doak design (High Pointe, Black Forest) ??  While Forest Dunes is certainly a very nice setting for golf, with some fun and  intriguing holes, I cannot see how it comes close to a comparison with Pine Valley.  To me it would be like comparing Arcadia Bluffs to a Cypress Point.  

[Chris_Blakely]

Jay,

Please reread / wordsmith your first paragraph, I was a little confused. I think you are trying to say that Forest Dunes looks more like Pine Valley that Lakewood Shores - Blackshire does.  I read it several times and almost think you are making my point.  

But, if you are saying FD looks more PV-esque than LS - Blakshire, then I simply must disagree.  Forest Dunes is much to well kept from the cartpaths to the rough to the bunkers.  If the scruffy and rugged look is what we are comparing than I stand by the Blackshire course and the Dunes.  Also are you talking about the Gailes course or the Blackshire cours at Lakewood Shores because they are different courses???

[Brian Cenci]

I agree with everyone else on this post.  Forest Dunes is a great course and probably top 6 or 7 in Michigan (public or private) but to call it Michigan's Pine Valley is beyond a huge stretch.  It has waste areas and such but they're more manicured and the back nine has a few holes with significant waste areas (16, 17, 18).  The front nine is more in the woods with some sandy waste areas but again, they look more manicured.  Overall Forest Dunes is a great course in the middle of nowhere, but anyone who calls it the Pine Valley of Michigan is on something.

The closest thing to Pine Valley in Michigan is probably The Dunes Club (although I've only seen pictures of Pine Valley and never played it).

[Joe Hancock]

Are we comparing architectural features, or aesthetics/ grooming/ presentation in this discussion?

I've not been to many of the places named, so I have no reference basis.

Joe

[Jay Flemma]

Chris, mea culpa, I thought you were referring to the Gailes Course.  I still think that neither really looks all that much like Pine Valley and that people are in a rush to anoint anything "the next" anything, especially Pine valley after so many "copies" were built.

[Chris_Blakely]

Jay,

I think with the LS- Blackshire and the Dunes that they look more like PV than FD does.  I 100% agree that people are more in a rush to anoint the next PV.  My point was only to say that if any of the courses in Michigan are PV-esque that the Dunes and Blackshire are the most like it in the state, but agree that both are still far from PV.  I will say that I enjoyed the Blackshire course a lot and even liked it more than the Gailes and not because of it being billed as PV-esque.

[George Freeman]

Are we comparing architectural features, or aesthetics/ grooming/ presentation in this discussion?

I've not been to many of the places named, so I have no reference basis.

Joe

Joe, I would have to assume we are purely discussing "aesthetics/grooming/presentation" in this thread.

IMO it is even less likely that any of the courses listed would come close to matching PV's architectural merit (based on literature, as I have never played PV).

[David Neveux]

I don't think it would be very condusive for anyone to compare architectural qualities of a course they have not played / seen / intimately studied.  I can comment on Forest Dunes because I have played it several times.  I can only say that this looks or doesnt look like PV because I have seen pictures.  Furthermore I doubt very much that there are many similarities from an architectural standpoint either.  Maybe this topic could be easier to evaluate if we all had a chance to play PV!!!  Anyone, Anyone??  

[Bill_McBride]

I love courses where the environment changes during the course of a round (think Cypress Point or Bandon Trails or Friars Head).  Forest Dunes certainly fits the bill as it starts out in the open, goes into the forest, back out into a sandy waste, back into the woods with a nice heathland feel, then finishes in the sandy waste again.  Agreed that the greens are very well conditioned but they could have used some more contour.  Overall it's a fun place to play - *** or Doak 7.

[George Freeman]

I love courses where the environment changes during the course of a round (think Cypress Point or Bandon Trails or Friars Head).  Forest Dunes certainly fits the bill as it starts out in the open, goes into the forest, back out into a sandy waste, back into the woods with a nice heathland feel, then finishes in the sandy waste again.

Bill,

I agree with you on this, and the fact the FD does a good job of melding the contrasting terrains together (as I've also read about the other courses you mentioned).  

However, I've often heard of "Schizophrenic" courses being described negatively.  

What traits/methods are present in a course that pleasingly navigates different types of terrain vs "Schizophrenic" courses that do not do a good job?

[Bill_McBride]

I love courses where the environment changes during the course of a round (think Cypress Point or Bandon Trails or Friars Head).  Forest Dunes certainly fits the bill as it starts out in the open, goes into the forest, back out into a sandy waste, back into the woods with a nice heathland feel, then finishes in the sandy waste again.

Bill,

I agree with you on this, and the fact the FD does a good job of melding the contrasting terrains together (as I've also read about the other courses you mentioned).  

However, I've often heard of "Schizophrenic" courses being described negatively.  

What traits/methods are present in a course that pleasingly navigates different types of terrain vs "Schizophrenic" courses that do not do a good job?

Well, a couple of things:

First, the transition(s) must be smooth, not jarring.  No desert into thick forest.

Second, it's a lot more appealing to me if you go in and out several times.  I personally find a front nine out in the meadow and a back nine in thick forest to be pretty boring.  There's a course like that in Northern Virginia that I recall, but it was immemorable because of that and I therefore can't recall the name.  

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