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Andy Troeger

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 08:17:32 PM »
Quote from: B_Boardman on January 17, 2008, 08:04:56 PM
How about successive par 3s?  Can anyone recall a precedent of where this worked?  Or is it even done?  Maybe it's just a roadblock waiting to happen.  

I think most agree it worked pretty well at #15 and 16 at Cypress Point  ;D
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Brent Boardman

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 08:21:39 PM »
Ah, yes, thanks for the kick in the head, Andy.  Slipped my mind - a great precedent indeed.  Now if I only had a piece of Monterey coast to work with... ;)
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Andy Troeger

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 08:23:45 PM »
Just remember that if anyone ever tries to tell you that successive par threes don't work that you have a pretty good counterargument.

Tullymore #4 and 5 are a nice set as well although not in the league of CPC obviously. I might be able to come up with another example or two in time, but they are fairly rare.
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TaylorA

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2008, 08:34:43 PM »
The course that I play out of - Reunion in north Atlanta - has 5 par 3s and 5 par 5s, with the inward half sporting 3 par 3s, 3 par 5s and 3 par 4s. I think it's great and makes for an interesting match play course.

As an aside, I wonder if the architects here know if par 3s are more desirable for residential development? It would seem to me that a home buyer would like to live on a par 3 over another hole for a number of reasons - including being able to see golfers play a hole from start to finish.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 08:41:12 PM »
Brent:

As long as people are kicking you in the head ... Pacific Dunes has consecutive par-3's at 10 and 11, which worked out pretty well.

Rock Creek also has back to back threes; I guess you picked the wrong project to work on last summer.

The funny thing is that I always told myself that I would never want to put par-3's back to back.  I guess we should never say never.  I even drew a double green on a plan last month, and I was pretty sure I would NEVER build one of those, but it IS a good spot for one.
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Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2008, 09:04:50 PM »
One instance in which consecutive par-3s don't work is the case of a course renovation gone awry. I recently played  Sea Scape Golf Links in Kitty Hawk, NC, which now suffers from this unfortunate condition. As told to me by a local, the owners sold some lots on the 12th hole to raise funds for the renovation of all 18 greens. Something went wrong and they were forced to convert the hole from a par-4 into a par-3. The new tee sits hundreds of yards from the 11th green, totally interrupting the flow of the course. The jarring effect of this sore thumb detracts from the 13th hole, a fine 138-yard, par-3 secluded in a grove of live oak trees. BTW, the original designer was 1959 Masters champion Art Wall.
Mike T.  
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Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2008, 09:08:36 PM »
Isn't it a myth that architects can produce 5 par 3s and ensure that each will require a different club....hole position, tee position, wind, relative turf conditions at the time all change club selection on every par 3 I play...so unless the superintendant keeps a huge chart and moves tee boxes as the wind shifts, it is just silly to judge a course by how many different clubs you use on the par 3s on a given day....Now, certainly on repeat plays, some sets of par 3s will lead to a more varied club selection...but I think its folly to say I want 5 or 6 par 3s that all use different clubs...very unlikely.

Bart
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 09:09:01 PM by Bart Bradley »
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Brent Boardman

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2008, 09:29:37 PM »
Tom,
I hang my head in shame.  I think you pretty much took my skull clean off with that one.  I couldn't really remember the routing for Rock Creek though; my camera battery was dead when I got there, and the pics I took with my phone didn't turn out very well (by the way, I relinquished project selection to you  ;)).  Funny you mention double greens - I thought I had a spot one might work, but decided against it.  I'm kinda in the no-double-greens frame of mind anyway.


Bart,
Good point.  However, I think it is possible to design many par 3s with differing clubs in mind, especially in light of normal conditions on site and varying topography, not to mention hole strategy.  I definitely see where you're coming from though.



B
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2008, 09:55:44 PM »
I really enjoy five of them, as long as there's a thoughtful variety both in  length and green complex.  I especially like the quintet at Stonewall's  North Course by  Rennaisance Designs. The c.2003  course is in southeast Pennsylvania near Bulltown
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Jim Nugent

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2008, 12:17:10 AM »
St. Louis CC has two par 3's in a row.  Number 2, a long uphill Biarritz, and number 3, an Eden.  I wonder how many other U.S. Open courses have that?  
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2008, 04:50:19 AM »
The great thing about the Red Course at the Berkshire is that every time you play it you think you'll score well because of the 6 short par 5s.  What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts, however, because scoring well on the par 3s is not easy.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2008, 05:17:52 AM »
Quote from: Mark Pearce on January 18, 2008, 04:50:19 AM
The great thing about the Red Course at the Berkshire is that every time you play it you think you'll score well because of the 6 short par 5s.  What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts, however, because scoring well on the par 3s is not easy.

the red course at the berkshire is tremendous fun because of those six par-3's.... the 7th, 10th and 16th in particular are amongst my favourite anywhere... 18 is a bit of a let down though...
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2008, 07:00:02 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on January 18, 2008, 05:17:52 AM
Quote from: Mark Pearce on January 18, 2008, 04:50:19 AM
The great thing about the Red Course at the Berkshire is that every time you play it you think you'll score well because of the 6 short par 5s.  What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabouts, however, because scoring well on the par 3s is not easy.

the red course at the berkshire is tremendous fun because of those six par-3's.... the 7th, 10th and 16th in particular are amongst my favourite anywhere... 18 is a bit of a let down though...
Indeed.  18 may be the weakest hole on the course.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Richard Boult

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2008, 11:05:54 AM »
I like a lot of par 3's, but what drives me crazy at one of our local courses is that they ALWAYS move the pin and tees in synch, so the yardage NEVER changes from day to day... a very frustrating green and tee restoration rotation.

BTW, we have a 12-hole course opening soon next to Monarch Dunes that's ALL par 3's!  And these holes look tough!
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Brent Boardman

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2008, 04:11:32 PM »
Wow - 12 holes AND all par 3s.  That pretty much makes the top of both of my posts so far!
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Mark Bourgeois

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »
Darwin writes of something of a "par 3 fad" coming in the early part of the 20th century.  He mentions TOC's need for only two par 3s setting the standard for a long time.

Many courses up to then did have just two, three, or four short holes.  Then those limits were broken, not always but apparently more frequently, at places like Rye, Addington and Berkshire.

I suspect, as in all these things, it comes back to the ball.

I imagine we've discussed this before -- anyone have links to appropriate threads?

If not:
1. Do I have my reading of Darwin right?
2. If yes to #1, was Darwin right?
3. If yes to #2, why did it happen?

Thanks,
Mark
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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2008, 05:04:03 PM »
Tom Doak mentionned:


The funny thing is that I always told myself that I would never want to put par-3's back to back.  I guess we should never say never.  I even drew a double green on a plan last month, and I was pretty sure I would NEVER build one of those, but it IS a good spot for one.

As long as you avoid the waterfall... it's OK, if not be ready to face the angry people of GolfClubAtlas.com

I can see the thread, what Doak was thinking? Is he ruining his career?
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Gerry B

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2008, 09:41:58 PM »
consecutive par 3's

as mentioned

cypress - nuff said

pac dunes - pretty great

st louis country club - also great . the biarritz green is semi blind from the tee which i thought added to the hole. the eden was also very good. and they have 5 par 3's  they have 5 par 3's including the crater hole  - cbm / raynor original unique to st louis cc. i also really like the short there - fantastic tilted green complex.the redan there is nothing special
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Zack Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2008, 04:59:21 PM »
I enjoy par 3's and don't mind a course with 5 but I hate clubs that have alot of par 3's that all require the same club.  for example a course that has 5 par 3's and 4 of them are 5 irons, a good mixture of yardages and looks are nice
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Fairways & Greens
Zack Quinn Kelly

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2008, 04:32:00 AM »
Quote from: B_Boardman on January 17, 2008, 02:29:43 PM
Ally,

I thought maybe it would be in that chapter.  I tried to flip through and look for it, but it didn't pop out.  I suppose I should pick it back up and read the chapter  ;)


B

It is actually the following chapter on 'General Principles, Construction and Upkeep'. Page 60 in my edition.
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Brent Boardman

Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2008, 03:24:16 PM »
Ah, thanks Ally.  I skipped that section in lieu of reading other things first.  Much appreciated.
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many par 3s?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2008, 06:05:54 PM »
Im currently doing one 'The Stranahan' which is kind of quirky.. It has 7 par 3s.
3 par 5s, 8 4s.
The first is par 3, then the 6th, 8th, 11th, 15th, 16th and 18th.
17 is a tough par 4, it will be quite a finish.
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The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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