Let's talk Turnberry now

[Michael Dugger]

I was reading some interesting stuff in Paul Daley's Links Golf on what a phenomenal job Mackenzie Ross did rebuilding Turnberry after the war.

It's always talked about as one of the classic links courses, a member of the "Open Rotunda," etc......

I always thought #16 looked way cool, based on Open coverage.  I've yet to make it over the pond to see firsthand, however.

Some of the other holes look downright pedestrian, though, so what say the esteemed treehouse?  

[Evan_Green]

Some of the other holes look downright pedestrian, though, so what say the esteemed treehouse?  

Which holes do you think look pedestrian?

[BCrosby]

Michael -

Don't mean to veer off topic, but...

A lot has been written about Turnberry's recovery after WWII.

Was Turnberry viewed as a first tier course before WWII?

I remember reading that the hotel served as a military barracks in WWI. Did the course suffer damage during WWI from which it recovered in the '20's?

Bob

[Michael Dugger]

I remember reading that the hotel served as a military barracks in WWI. Did the course suffer damage during WWI from which it recovered in the '20's?

Bob

Bob

Turnberry, having been used as a wartime airfield, was on the verge of extinction by 1946. Cue the timely intervention of course architect Mackenzie Ross, who transformed the property into what has become one of the world's finest golf courses

[BCrosby]

Michael -

My question is about what happened to Turnberry post-WWI, as in after 1918. The resort was used as a military base during The Great War. I assume having a military base there didn't do a lot of good things for the course.  

Who restored it in the 20's? Was Turnberry considered a top tier course in the 20's and 30's? That is, was it considered a good course before it became an air field in World War II?

Or did it become a top tier course only after World War II and Mackenzie Ross' work there?

Bob

[mike_beene]

It is certainly among the most beautiful places I have played,and I love the 4 thru 9 stretch going out to and by the sea.Then the next 5 holes seem very bland(even 10 by the sea). 16 is a neat hole with the wee burn.18 is a little anticlimatic.I will leave the whys to the experts,but as a layman it has a little bit of a what might have been course.Dont get me wrong, I really do like it and perhaps it is a victim of expectations,especially with the 3 Opens it has brought us.

[Sean_A]

To be honest, I think Turnberry is only marginally better than Troon.  Both work well as open venues, but aren't really my bag.  Having said that, because of its beauty and the lovely hotel I would be willing to go back to Turnberry at some point.  

In a strange way Turnberry starts off a bit like Troon in that the opening holes are a bit mundane, but probably better as a set than Troon's first 3.  For me, the course kicks off on #4 and the stretch thru 10 has a load of wonderful golf - #8 being the star of the bunch.  Unfortunately, the remainder of the course can't live up to the high standard set earlier, but it isn't really reasonable to expect it to do so.  Like the opening three, none of the holes coming back are poor, but none would be missed if replaced.  Having said that, I do like #s 16 & 17, but they aren't outstanding - just good, fun golf.  

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I recently visited Prestwick- Troon - Turnberry and a few others. Turnberry was much better than I thought it was going to be. I was amazed at some of the elevation changes. Sean- I think the start is much better than Troon, the first is easyish but still a nice opener, second a bit tougher the third must be over 500 yards now and is a great hard 4. After that the stretch fom 4-11 speaks for itself, 12,13,14 maybe the dullest holes, then its a great finish.
Lots of new back tees for 2009 going in.
My open rota of best-worst would be:
1. TOC
2. Muirfield
3. Turnberry
4. Royal birkdale
5. RSG
6. Hoylake (never actually been there)
7. Carnoustie
8. Lytham
9. Troon

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bob I’ve had a brief look through t he books and it would appear that Mackenzie Ross deserves all the credit.

Originally the land was owned by the Marquess of Ailsa who had a private 13 hole course.  After the Hotel was planned Willie Fernie designed a new 18 holes and a 9 holer for the ladies.  

Ian Nader “Turnberry needed 70 years before it came of age. Twice in wartime it was requisitioned for conversion to an airport. Mercifully each time restoration and improvement followed.”   The Scoresaver implies that the land by the sea was not used in WW2,  and Ross gave it today’s layout.

Turnberry was one of the highlights of this year for me – and yes it’s a must play.  I don’t find the opening as disappointing as some, in fact the only hole I rate lower than others would be the 11th – uninteresting given it’s position..  18 may be weak but the three that precede it are special.  

I was lucky to play with a recent past captain and his friend, who waxed lyrical about how underappreciated the 14th was.   Playing into the wind, slightly uphill, “a little links gem; I love to come up the 14th in a match against someone from another club. They always think it’s an easy four”.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Tony. That's helpful.

I asked the question about Turnberry pre-WWII because Josh Crane gave it a quite respectable rating in the mid-20's. He ranked it higher than TOC, Prestwick, N Berwick and some others. (Not that Crane's rankings ought to be final word - they aren't. But the older course was certainly well thought of.)

Which leads to my next question. While we are fairly sure that MacK Ross's course was an improvement over the asphalt air base located there during the War, are we also certain that his course was an improvement over Fernie's pre-war Turnberry?

The fate of Prince's raises similar questions. How good was the pre-War course versus the current 27 holes? My understanding is that the pre-War Prince's was vastly better than the courses there now.

Bob

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean I find Turnberry to be a star. I find the  1st and 3rd to be average but otheriwse wow. I mean in all due respect 15 is no slouch and the 16th green is very cool. 4 to 9 are an all world stretch of holes. I do feel Turrnberry and Troon are UK top 15 with Western Gailles coming in top 20. Therefore this part of Scotland sits in tall company with St Andrews and the Liverpool area for best consentration of top tier championship golf in the UK.

[Bart Bradley]

I loved the Turnberry golf course.  I have noticed quite a few of you were disappointed.  Not me.  For those who haven't been there, I'll share these two photos...





I wonder if for some, the environment surrounding the golf...a large American owned hotel company running the operation...detracts from the place.  

Can't wait to go back to Turnberry!


Bart

[Jonathan Cummings]

Of the 15 times I've played Turnberry (with friends, my father, my brother, with Rich Beam and just behind Davis Love) over the many years and trips I've taken to Great Britain it remains my sentimental favorite a tweak behind my fascination favorite - TOC.  JC

[Matt MacIver]

The elevation changes make it unlike any other Scottish rota course, which is a big deal for me.  I agree with most other comments made here, but most especially wish they could somehow spice up #18, which is just so anti- climatic after the great views (and golf) earlier and the fun holes 16 & 17.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

The biggest changes for next years open are on 16.  In order to get back to a longer shot into the green it’s been lengthened and turned into more of a L-R dogleg.  This will also make the angle into the green narrower and I think (turn the slope from back to front to more of a L-R.   The burn played a major part in deciding a Walker(?) cup and the members seemed to approve of putting the fear back in.

The old fairway. New one to left, there was talk of adding mounding to left-hand side of fairway.


The new tee’s for 17

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just to add to Tony's comments, my understanding of the new work is as follows:

the main reason for altering 16 was to allow 60 more yards to be added to 17... However, consensus is it has resulted in an even better hole....

For those that talk of 4-9 being the great holes, 10 has been significantly spiced up with the tees being taken closer to the sea and new fairway added on the sea side with centreline bunkers becoming a hazard from the drive...

There has been little or no work done to 11 but there is a proposal out there to move the current lifeless par-3 right on to the water edge which will likely make it one of the most photographed holes... the idea looks spectacular... However, even if this does go ahead, it certainly won't be in time for the 2009 Open

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

Turnberry was highly regarded enough prior to WWI to host the 1912 British Ladies Amateur, which was and is played only on top courses.  It also hosted that tournament in 1921 and 1937 and hosted the Scottish Ladies 5 times between the Wars.

I've seen a few pictures of the old course (interwar, I think) and like seemingly all pictures taken during that era, the course seemed more fearsome and more interesting in those days, at least to me.

As to the ladies dominance, maybe it wasn't long enough for the men prior to the work of M. Ross.  Just guessing.

Rich

PS--there is a centeneary book on Turnberry out there.  Has nobody read it?

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Click here for a thread demonstrating that Rihc has lost his long-term memory.

Click here for thread on the history and evolution of Turnberry Ailsa's routing.

Cheers,
Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Click here for a thread demonstrating that Rihc has lost his long-term memory.

Click here for thread on the history and evolution of Turnberry Ailsa's routing.

Cheers,
Mark

Thanks, Mark

You missed the 1912 Ladies Amateur, however....

Slainte

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wasn't that tournament played in Mediocristan?

[Gary Slatter]

We played Turnberry on Sunday, other than a 50 mph wind and waves of icy rain the course was wonderful.  The first hole, short par 4, was driver, one iron, texas wedge!  The 16th was driver, 3 iron, wedge.  Many of the bunkers are being worked on (new sod), did not notice many other changes maybe a few new bunkers (it was the most difficult conditions I have ever tried to play in).  It's a great course, should not be missed.  This was my 5th round and previously Turnberry had not reminded me of Carnoustie but on Sunday I kept noticing similarities.

Memorable moment: Halfway House has sign posted:
Monday Closed
Tuesday Closed
Wednesday Closed
Thursday Closed
Friday Closed
Saturday Open
Sunday Closed   Damn we missed Saturday !

[BCrosby]

Mark -

I just caught up with this. Thanks for the link. I should have guessed that GCA had already covered it.

You wrote:

"(Some of the money for Ailsa actually went to undoing design elements of the prewar course: about 150 fairway bunkers were removed!)

.... creating a post-WWII, Caledonian "Shadow Creek" would have been genuinely prohitibitive. .... Ross was highly constrained to work with the routing he had, even as he transformed many if not all the antebellum holes.

So, Ross had little choice but to work within Hutchinson's existing footprint. He might have done the best routing he could under the circumstances."


That's a lot of bunkers taken out.

While it would be great to have more detail about the antebellum course, it sounds fascinating. I love the comment from 1939 that it was "golfing almost outside the Gates of Paradise."

In any event, it seems far from clear that the current Turnberry is an improvement over the pre WWII course.

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

You're welcome, Bob.  Well, it did just make it on that 1939 list of greatest tests that Tom MacWood uncovered.

Additionally, I recall a quote that made me sit up a bit.  It dated back to WWII and was from someone like Henry Longhurst. (Don't quote me.)

The quote's author served in the military.  He said during idle moments his thoughts turned first to Turnberry.  Then he concluded by saying something like, "Turnberry, it must be reckoned, was a total loss."

As I recall, though, Donald Steel wrote Ross dramatically improved the course, in particular in using the stretch along the Irish Sea.

Mark

[Andrew Mitchell]

You're welcome, Bob.  Well, it did just make it on that 1939 list of greatest tests that Tom MacWood uncovered.

Additionally, I recall a quote that made me sit up a bit.  It dated back to WWII and was from someone like Henry Longhurst. (Don't quote me.)

The quote's author served in the military.  He said during idle moments his thoughts turned first to Turnberry.  Then he concluded by saying something like, "Turnberry, it must be reckoned, was a total loss."

As I recall, though, Donald Steel wrote Ross dramatically improved the course, in particular in using the stretch along the Irish Sea.

Mark

Mark
Your Henry Longhurst quote rang a bell with me.  From a google search the nearest I could find was:
"in those long periods inseparable from wartime service, when there is nothing to do but sit and think, I used often to find myself sitting and thinking of the time when once again we might be playing at Turnberry."

Given that this precedes the MacKenzie Ross restoration Longhurst clearly rated the pre war Turnberry highly.

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