[Marty Bonnar]

In a few recent threads I've seen over way too many references to Edens and Redans where the play of the hole is 'ower the watter'.

Capes, maybe.

Original Redans and Edens CAN BE PLAYED ALONG THE GROUND. Copies should also. Live with it.

GCGCGCGCGCGC 18 is a Cape....IMHO, naturellement.

FBD.

[Tom_Doak]

Martin:

I understand where you're coming from.  However, one C.B. Macdonald (who popularized the use of the Eden hole as much as anyone) deliberately located the tee of the 13th hole at National Golf Links behind a small pond -- agreeing with the professionals' opinion that the hole should NOT be able to be played with a putter.

[JohnV]

I recently read that the one thing Macdonald didn't like about the 11th at St. Andrews was that it could be played with a putter.  Perhaps that is why some of his/Raynor's (like #3 at Fox Chapel) have water in front of them.

Also, does that mean that all real Biarittz holes must have water as the original did?

[Bill_McBride]

Charles Blair Macdonald was so offended by the idea that the St Andrews Eden could be played along the ground with a putter that he put a pond between tee and green at NGLA.  Look it up (George Bahto, Evangelist page 118) - "On a Macdonald's 'Eden' there would always be a hazard directly in front of the tee box to nullify any attempt to bounce the ball to the front of the green."

Always happy to be helpful with your research!  

[Marty Bonnar]

Points well made and taken sirs, but,
WHERE does the concept of the original hole end and the IDEA for the new one begin?

CBM's thoughts were only HIS OPINION!

Let's say, Golf had actually begun in the US and we'd NEVER seen hole designs over this side until maybe someone visited Augusta and saw maybe #12.

So, now we have - let's call it - the Wee Burny Hole.

Course designers all over the UK start designing 'Wee Burnies'. Is WATER an ESSENTIAL???

FBD.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess I'm just the fastest typist!  

This does raise an interesting point for Old Macdonald, since, in general, I agree with MacKenzie's defense of being able to putt the Eden from tee to green.  On the site we've chosen, there is a small wetland we have to preserve about halfway to the hole, and kind of right of center -- but I was thinking of it more in terms of replacing the Shell bunker at the Eden, than as a Macdonaldesque cross hazard.

That's one of the first holes we'll build so I guess it's one of the first things we'll argue about.

[JohnV]

Thanks Bill.

I don't have my library at work.  Since I haven't read George's book in a while, I must have seen it in another book also as I remember reading it within the last few weeks.

[Marty Bonnar]

Tom,
I'm very happy to have contributed to the design philosophy for Old Macdonald!

(Fee note in post)

See, you've even cited MacK against Mac! My work here is obviously now complete and I shall happily return to the planet Geeeeek from where I came...

cheers,
FBD.

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Bill.

I don't have my library at work.  Since I haven't read George's book in a while, I must have seen it in another book also as I remember reading it within the last few weeks.

John, I was wondering why you were working so late on a Friday when I realized you have relocated to a veritable God's country!    See you this spring as it appears the Kings Putter will be back in action.

And yes, as usual FBD doesn't quite get it.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

FBD,

I think CBM also objected to the idea of a mis-hit tee shot being so well rewarded.

"Templates" have their variations or nuances with the general concept being quite clear.

# 18 at GCGC is in no manner, shape or form, a "Cape", it's an "Eden" as is # 13 at NGLA.

Although, I also maintain that # 13 at NGLA also replicates # 7 at   TOC from a tee to the left rear of # 12 green.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not sure what CB has to do with this. I feel both holes defenses are not compromised by a fronting water hazzard depending on the location of this hazzard

[BCrosby]

"On a Macdonald's 'Eden' there would always be a hazard directly in front of the tee box to nullify any attempt to bounce the ball to the front of the green."

Not to quibble, but there is no water in front of the Eden at Mid-O. There is no water in front of the Eden at Yale. Which doesn't leave a lot of other extant Edens designed by MacD.

Bob

[Marty Bonnar]

All,
thanks for your comments here. My statement - of course - was meant to be as inflammatory as possible in order to incite angry, injured or simply downright confused responses.

The thread idea germinated the other evening after a few too many vins rouge and was really all about:

"Just how far can a template hole deviate from the design of the original before it becomes no longer a derivative and may even set a new standard or become a whole new type/sub-type".

In my opinion what CBM did was very noble and quite unselfish - at least in the first instance. Might his choosing to re-create the holes of his experience actually demonstrate the fact that he KNEW at that point HE could do NO BETTER?

I generally still prefer original thought to plagiarisation, however....

FBD.

[Mike Erdmann]

Yale's 13th is a good example of a Redan that plays over water.  As Tiger alludes to, it all depends on the location of the hazard.  The water on Yale's 13th is close to the tee and as such doesn't interfere with the ground game approach to the green.

[Bill_McBride]

"On a Macdonald's 'Eden' there would always be a hazard directly in front of the tee box to nullify any attempt to bounce the ball to the front of the green."

Not to quibble, but there is no water in front of the Eden at Mid-O. There is no water in front of the Eden at Yale. Which doesn't leave a lot of other extant Edens designed by MacD.

This was all a response to Martin's provocative initial post.  So far as I know, NGLA is the ONLY McD/R Eden with a pond in between.  Creek, no.  Chicago, no.  Yale, no.  Mid-Ocean, no.  That's my experience.

Actually, the "Strath" bunker is so far to the right of the 13th green at NGLA that it really doesn't look much like the Old Course Eden for that reason too!

[BCrosby]

This thread inspired me last weekend to reread what MacD said about the Eden.

Turns out that many thought the contouring of the original was too severe, including Vardon and Taylor. MacD was concerned that his replicas not suffer the same same criticism, so he expressly tried to build them with less movement than the Old Course version. He notes that Raynor built even tamer versions for the same reasons.

What seems odd is MacD's concern that the original Eden was too severe when played with the correct clubs but too easy because you might play it with a putter.  

Those two thoughts might not be on a direct collision course, but they are certainly going in opposite directions.

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

I think the water in front of the green is a moot point in today's game. If the water is really in play, it's not a good Eden, but if it just there to defend against a putter being used, its not part of today's strategy. (A greenside pond was added on my club's Eden, so I say we no longer have an Eden... )

Following up on what Bob said, I think the Eden hole is where Raynor most dramatically diverted from Macdonald. I think Macdonald really cared about building a Strath bunker, a Hill bunker and a Shelley bunker, while Raynor (and later Banks) seems to have simply built a "horsecollar" trap around the entire green, leaving a run up corrider in the front.

Are there any Raynor edens with a proper Strath bunker?  

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