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Geoffrey_Walsh

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Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« on: October 31, 2007, 10:41:14 PM »
Anyone ever played this Billy Bell design before?  I have the first twilight time tomorrow and it seemed like the most convienient place to play because I am staying at the Ritz-Carlton right across the street for a business trip.

The website says it was renovated in 2004 (by whom?).

http://www.azbiltmoregc.com/course-adobe.cfm

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 11:33:55 PM »
Forrest Richardson did the work at Adobe:

www.golfgroupltd.com/arizona_biltmore.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 11:46:34 PM »
Thanks, Steve.  I am looking forward to it even more now.  I have not seen Forrest's work before.

Tom Yost

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 11:55:53 PM »
Geoff,

Phoenix-based architect Forrest Richardson did the renovation.

http://www.golfgroupltd.com/arizona_biltmore.html

I haven't been out there yet to check out the changes. Basically, the 70 year old course was nearly lost to development pressure, but after  many years of negotiation, it was decided to give up some acreage to development and keep the course with some rerouting.  The Adobe is an old school (for Phoenix anyway), core golf course, in a flat parkland setting with trees and grass (not a desert course).  Should be an enjoyable afternoon of golf.  Check out the homes along the perimeter (wow!).  

Tom

Bill_McBride

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 11:15:08 PM »
Geoffrey, if you have time and opportunity, check out the Gold course at the Wigwam out west in Litchfield, it's another Forrest Richardson remodel with a bunch of really good looking holes.

Mike Policano

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 02:22:29 PM »
Geoffrey,

Since you are staying at the Ritz, the Biltmore is a good place for a quick round. I played it last year early in the am in a quick 3 hours.

The greens have some pretty good movement and some are well-bunkered. The one green in front of Glen Campbell is a little busy.

Be sure to check to see if there is an out ing that day.

Cheers

Jeff Shelman

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2007, 12:24:31 PM »
I played there last winter right before Christmas and enjoyed myself quite a bit. The property is quite flat, but there are some cool holes and green complexes.

Plus it's nice not to be playing through backyards for the entire day.

Tony Petersen

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2007, 12:52:36 PM »
Played it yesterday with 3 buddies from the "tips"  ;)

I personally love playing the Biltmore because it seems like "real" golf to me. Don't get me wrong, it is not a Bear by any means. But, being in AZ you don't see alot of traditional parkland layouts that play just as that. Either way, Forrest did a GREAT job on the restoration. The bunkers have finally settled, the overseed seems to be coming in strong and we had a great time. The course in cart-path only, and the greens are running really sloooooooow (for someone used to playing at Desert Mountain pretty much always). Other than that, it's a fun time!!!
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Bill_McBride

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2007, 04:51:02 PM »
Played it yesterday with 3 buddies from the "tips"  ;)

I personally love playing the Biltmore because it seems like "real" golf to me. Don't get me wrong, it is not a Bear by any means. But, being in AZ you don't see alot of traditional parkland layouts that play just as that. Either way, Forrest did a GREAT job on the restoration. The bunkers have finally settled, the overseed seems to be coming in strong and we had a great time. The course in cart-path only, and the greens are running really sloooooooow (for someone used to playing at Desert Mountain pretty much always). Other than that, it's a fun time!!!
No walking allowed?  That's about as walkable as it gets!

Mark Pearce

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 04:03:06 AM »
I don't remember it well as a course (I wasn't a good enough giolfer back then) but the Adobe was the first course I ever played in the US.  I was in Phoenix with a partner from a Washington Law firm for a deposition and they put us in the Biltmore.  I took my clubs and got a game at the Adobe the weekend before the deposition started and a game at Papago later in the week when we'd finished and before my evening flight home.

The Biltmore was a great place to prepare for a deposition, I still remember sitting in shorts and T-shirt by the pool, with a waitress bringing us drinks, as we read through the papers.  Asto the golf, I have stronger memories of Papago, though it was far more rough and ready than the Adobe.  I guess that's because it was my first experience of desert golf.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Yancey_Beamer

Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 09:58:43 AM »
A great old course!Super pictures in the golf shop ofthe 30's and movie stars. A walk back in time,well restored.

Tony Petersen

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 06:11:07 PM »
Just an FYI... Walking IS NOT allowed at the Biltmore, though Bill is correct that The Adobe has to be one of the easiest walks in golf... You just have to find that buddy who loves the cart, let him drive and you walk in between shots... A helluva lot quicker than walking to and from the cart, then to and from the cart, then...  ;)

Fun, parkland course which is atypical of AZ golf. I guess it reminds me of the 'ole Alexandria Golf Club back in MN, which will always be the # 1 course in my heart ;D
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 11:56:15 PM »
I played the course on 11/1/07 and here are my thoughts:

It is certainly the most walkable desert course I have ever played and I think the experience is drastically affected by their rule to prohibit walking.  They need to at least offer the ability to walk and I would love to see them re-institute a caddy program there.  You can't play up the classical/traditional nature of the course and then prohibit walking.

The course plays to 6428 yds, 70.3, 128 from the tips.  I enjoyed the parkland feel and it was a perfect fit for my playing partners who were all higher handicap players (15-30) and could keep the ball in play without any problem.  The fairways can be quite narrow but the rough was not overly penal.  I wish more desert courses offered that playability but I can only guess that the prohibitive cost of irrigation prevents that from happening.

The greens did have some good movement in them and I would like to see them play at faster speeds.  I have a feeling that the course might surprise some players who tried to score on it under tournament conditions.  The day I played the greens were brutally slow, but even then the slope of the greens still came into play.

I am not sure what holes were affected by the addition of housing complexes but I have a feeling 1 & 10 may have been two of the holes.  If I have one major criticism, it was the holes did not vary enough in length.  I played from the white tees and hit driver/wedge on a number of holes.  There are 10 par 4's on the course between 306 yds and 386 yds.  To be fair, they vary greatly in design but given the course set-up you could hit driver and take most of the danger out of play.

I thought Forrest did a great job on the bunkers which are beautiful.  The bunkering is the strongest aspect of the course in my mind.  Check out these links for photos:

http://www.azbiltmoregc.com/course-adobe.cfm
http://arizona.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/azbiltmoreadobe.html

Holes of note:

#7 was my favorite hole.  363 yds from the tips, bunkers pinch in the fairway on the right at 220yds and the fairway wraps around them at an angle from the tee.  A tree guards the front left portion of the green making the best approach from the right (which leads you to try and carry the bunkers).

#13 - Par 4 of 399 yds from the tips.  High fade required off the tee but the green was the attraction here.  Almost looks like a clover leaf green with some great pin positions.

18 looked like a nice finishing hole but unfortunately I played twilight and it was pitch black by the time I arrived at the green.

Final conclusion - I'd play it again and would look forward to it.  You can't beat the location which is central to most Phoenix hotels and was right across the street from the Ritz Carlton where I was staying.  The design, while it has been tweaked by the development, still shows signs of greatness.  The conditioning could have been better (especially the speed of the greens) and that detracted from the experience (along with the cart-path only rule).  I would take advantage of the $56 twilight rate, play it from the tips and leave the driver in the bag most of the time just to mix up my approach shots.  Sometimes I find I have more fun on an older course like this when I leave the driver at home.

One quick observation - Is there anything cooler than hitting a tee shot at dusk, with no way of watching the ball off the club, but just relying on the feel that swing/hit gives you on contact and then finding it right where you expect it to be?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 12:04:24 AM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Mark Smolens

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2007, 11:55:31 AM »
Back in 1964 when I was in 2nd grade we moved to Phoenix.  The Adobe was one of the courses that was in my Dad's rotation for his Saturday morning round of golf with friends.  In the summer, they teed off at first light, so I was dragged out of bed in the dark.  Dad walked and I pulled the cart (my fee was $1 and a cheeseburger after the round, usually around 9:30).  I have not been back to the Adobe course to play, largely because I play with the Troon Twosome card when I visit Mom in Scottsdale, and with my AZ identification card I get the resident's rate at We-Ko-Pa.  I will definitely go back to play on one visit this winter.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2007, 08:23:05 PM »
Geoffrey — Glad you enjoyed yourself. We have some more greens to attack. The work there has been an evolution. I will pass on the comments about the walking (again) to the owners. It will change...someday!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2007, 08:29:47 PM »
Forrest,

Thanks for passing that feedback along about the walking.  I really did enjoy the day.

Which holes were re-routed because of the development?  Any hints on the next phase of changes for the course?

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Biltmore Adobe course (AZ)
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2007, 08:40:59 PM »
Rerouted: 1, 10, 15, 16, 17 and 18. (1 and 18 flopped).

We plan on expanding greens at 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, and 13. A few bunkers will be added. No. 3 has always been a problem; we plan on raising the fairway if we can generate material.

Unfortunately, not much of the Wm P. Bell days survived. Of course, they planted cool season grasses back in 1926 and it died each Summer. Things have changed, to be sure.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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