Why does the D.A. bunker at Pine Valley get a free pass?

[TEPaul]

"Seems that the residents of Pine County didn't understand the semicolon -- and gave him grief whenever he used one!)"

DanK(tm):

Those Pine Countyers are some wise folks. Either you're a colon or your not. There's no need for a semi-colon. The next thing we know you editors will have us using something like a "sorta-colon".

[Chris Cupit]

One of the things I love about the game is its "inherent unfairness".  Hopefully two identical shots WON'T end up in the same place!

But I must confess I did not like the devil's asshole like I thought I would.  It is so penal and deep and given that you are almost guarranteed a horrible lie, there is little or no chance to even attempt a shot.  If it seemed at all possible to get out in some direction, I think it would be better.

This way you would be tempted to try and get out versus just automatically going back to the tee.  Of course you will most likely fail and make an even bigger number but that's what I'd like to see!  It has evolved over time to be so deep and vertical that I dare say it's a less interesting hazard today than maybe 15 years ago.

It has certainly evolved since the 20's when it was a pretty normal bunker but at some point in its evolution I think someone should have said, "Stop!" it's perfect now--too deep really but tempting enough for some fool to try!  Now even fools walk back to the tee barring some one in a thousand freakish lie.

   

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lots of great opinions here and I wish I had more time to post, but a lot of the beauty and fun of a short par 3 with an extreme hazard has somehow been lost in time.

If a guy my size can play out of the DAH, then anyone can. The hazard is there, it screams to be challenged and if you shy away from it, then you deserve whatever awaits you.

To say it isn't good design is a perfect example of someone that shouldn't be at Pine Valley. Should never be let past the gates.

[Chris Cupit]

Tommy,

How much of that bunker do you believe was "designed"?  Clearly the original intent was nothing like what exists today.  I am looking at pics from Shacks, "The Golden Age of Golf Design" and the picture from around 1992 shows a much different design.

In fact he says, "Note the small sand pit in front of the green, which evidently evolved on its own.  Here, it is merely a small trap, not the fiercley deep bunker it is today."

Whom do you credit for designing today's bunker?

If it continues to evolve (or devolve ) at what point, if ever, do you think it is too deep?  

[Joe Hancock]

If it continues to evolve (or devolve ) at what point, if ever, do you think it is too deep?  

Tommy already answered this question. Once no one goes through the gates of PV, then the bunker is too deep.

Joe

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

I think that one of the first things that goes when you get older is the ability to properly use the semicolon; oops, I think I just lost it......

[Dan Kelly]

Dan

I think that one of the first things that goes when you get older is the ability to properly use the semicolon; oops, I think I just lost it......

From what I've heard, the inability to properly use the colon is an even sure sign of age.

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

I think that one of the first things that goes when you get older is the ability to properly use the semicolon; oops, I think I just lost it......

From what I've heard, the inability to properly use the colon is an even sure sign of age.

How, would you know; you whippersnapper?

[Chris Cupit]

Part of my point is that the penal nature of Pine Valley--it's ability to get you to go from the frying pan into the fire, is almost lost with the devil's asshole.  At some point, maybe soon, there is absolutely no chance of recovery and NO ONE would ever consider trying to hit their ball out.  In a way, it reduces your chances to make a bad decision and really run your score up  Is that what was intended?

BTW I did go in there to hit the obligitory shot and I could get out, BUT I smoothed the bunker with my foot first and gave myself a good lie.  A huge part of the difficulty with the shot is the fact that leaving people to smooth the bunker on their own can leave you in that bunker in an unraked "divot".  NO ONE could get out of that.

PS  I love not raking bunkers with rakes and love the nature of natural foot printed bunkers/hazards.  

[Sean Leary]

The best shot I have ever personally witnessed came out of the DA.  My friend hit in in there and it buried completely to the point that it took a few minutes to find it. With just a sliver of ball showing, he hit it to 6 inches.   Wouldn't believe it if I hadn't been there.

[Joe Bausch]

Finding a pic of the DA wasn't simple.  And I decided not to do a Google search on the exact phrase from my work computer.  

Here is the best I could find for those that are curious:



Recently my muni held their annual Greenskeeper Revenge.  Got me thinking how interesting a 'pin placement' could be on #10 at PV if they were ever silly enough to hold such an event!

[TEPaul]

Actually, the 10th green just may be something of an ideal design in a subtle strategic way to offset the super-severe penalty of getting in the DA.

The green is certainly not large and that's appropriate for the shortness of the hole but the basic contour in it is a moderate upslope more towards the back than the front into which you can play a shot to a front pin and have the ball basically filter back towards the front.

A back pin on the 10th is a whole lot harder to get a ball to than a front pin. The danger of trying to go at a back pin is the problem of going over the back of the green which can happen very easily and from which  a recovery is really tough to get near a back pin.

[SPDB]

If a guy my size can play out of the DAH, then anyone can. The hazard is there, it screams to be challenged and if you shy away from it, then you deserve whatever awaits you.

This is the most insightful comment on this thread and illustrates beautifully the risk reward properties of this hole. In the many times I've played the hole, I would say i have been on the well left a vast majority of the time, even when the hole is cut on the right. This has sometimes resulted in safe positioning on the green, but has also resulted in absurd lies, including the most ridiculous hanging lie when my ball nestled in the steep bank of the 18th tee (all world up and down, btw).

If you look at the hole, missing right is far preferable than missing left, where the most unpredictable lies await (some, in the narrow coffin bunkers, for example, which are equally as treacherous as the DA). But such is the risk in not playing over the DA and taking the supposed easier path of "less of resistance."

[A.G._Crockett]

Part of my point is that the penal nature of Pine Valley--it's ability to get you to go from the frying pan into the fire, is almost lost with the devil's asshole.  At some point, maybe soon, there is absolutely no chance of recovery and NO ONE would ever consider trying to hit their ball out.  In a way, it reduces your chances to make a bad decision and really run your score up  Is that what was intended?

BTW I did go in there to hit the obligitory shot and I could get out, BUT I smoothed the bunker with my foot first and gave myself a good lie.  A huge part of the difficulty with the shot is the fact that leaving people to smooth the bunker on their own can leave you in that bunker in an unraked "divot".  NO ONE could get out of that.

PS  I love not raking bunkers with rakes and love the nature of natural foot printed bunkers/hazards.  

Chris,
Did Mike Riley put anything like the DA on Rivermont?  I ask that because he added a version on the 8th at Brookfield; front right, and if the pin is on the right you almost have to play back out into the fairway because you end up with a downhill lie much of the time.  (When I was coaching HS golf at Roswell, it was an ironclad instruction to the players that they NOT fire at a back right pin.)

Another version in Atlanta would be the 7th at Settindown, though again, you can play out of that bunker as well.

[TEPaul]

Recovering out of the left bunker, particularly from far up into the left bunker is a whole lot easier than it used to be. In my opinion, the danger of getting far up into that left bunker the way it used to be got into my mind on the tee more than the DA by about a factor of ten. I have no idea how many times I've played that course over the years and I don't believe I've ever been in the DA. I did drop a ball in there once or twice and it sure isn't easy to get out in any direction. Frankly, I'd think the danger of hitting a ball from within that bunker and having it come back and hit you may be greater than any other bunker in the world including up close to the front face of the Road Hole bunker.

[Chris Cupit]

The best shot I have ever personally witnessed came out of the DA.  My friend hit in in there and it buried completely to the point that it took a few minutes to find it. With just a sliver of ball showing, he hit it to 6 inches.   Wouldn't believe it if I hadn't been there.

I wasn't there and I don't believe it

I should not have said no one or never.

I promise, I just want to see more "train wrecks" on that hole.  I just remember (about a month ago) thinking, "well that's just stroke and distance" no decision there.  Didn't Pine Valley have a local rule (at least for betting purposes) that said you couldn't ever declare a ball unplayable?

I'm just surprised I didn't find anyone down there!

I do absolutely love the hole but I do think it could be a little better.  While it is as "perfect" a course as I have ever played, given that all courses evolve and need constant vigilence to maintain their "purity" is it such a leap to suggest that at the very least, someone needs to "keep an eye" on that unique hazard before it changes beyond recognition or beyond what was decided it should play like.??

How is this even a debateable point unless one assumes that all "evolutions" increasingly improve the "organism".  

[TEPaul]

"Didn't Pine Valley have a local rule (at least for betting purposes) that said you couldn't ever declare a ball unplayable?"

Chris:

I guess you could say that. I don't think I'd call it a local rule exactly---it was more like an understanding. One of the most interesting things about PV is when you look at the place you get the impression it might not be possible to have enough golf balls in your bag when in fact it is relatively rare to lose a ball there. The other thing about the place is that it sure does create some situations that take more imagination to recover from than anyone will ever see anywhere else.