[Adam Clayman]

Craig, Yes it is. Being new, the club is receptive to inquiries and will allow unaccompanied play. The cost is not cheap, but worth it, and, is refundable upon being accepted as a member.

[Kalen Braley]

This is like saying Paris Hilton isn't a slut because Jenna Jameson is a bigger slut.

Amen,

Brother Shivas hath spoken the truth.  

Kalen:

I think you're unfairly harsh on Jenna.  Her popularity has exploded despite retreating from actually having sex with men in adult films.  Can't we just say their both skanks and leave it at that?

Can't help but see how money again is involved, just like with green fees.  Hilton is an heiress that has so much money she can do whatever she wants.  Jenna grew up an 'Average Jane' and achieved stardom through sex, so at least she got something in return for her sluttiness.

Better question... have they been to Bandon?  If not it sort of proves the theory that there are a lot of people that don't aspire to go there.

John,

Hate to say it, but you are off in the weeds, you need to come on back....

Your now saying because Jenna and Paris don't go to Bandon it proves the theory about average golfing joes going there?

Time to do a reset my man...

[John Kavanaugh]

Wait till Bandon 4 is open...The Golfweek guys will say it is so affordable you will be poorer for missing it.  When the dust settles we will all agree that Whitten destoryed the integrity of the ratings by trying to preserve it when he banned Erin Hills from the process.  

[John_Conley]

...
A vast majority of people have no desire to live in Carmel.
...

How much more out of touch can you be?

Garland, people live where they grew up, where there family is, where their job is, and where they'd like to be.  There aren't that many people living in Carmel.  Not out of touch at all.

It is nice, but it is very expensive and there aren't a lot of easy-to-get, high-paying jobs there.

I, for one, have no desire to be there.  If I did I would have moved there already.

Do you live there?  I have no idea who you are.  If you don't live there, why not?  Nobody is stopping you.

I think one guy on this board lives there.  Huntley.  Maybe there are more, but it isn't even 1% of the 1,500 that are members of Ran's site.

I rest my case.

[Garland Bayley]

...
A vast majority of people have no desire to live in Carmel.
...

How much more out of touch can you be?

Garland, people live where they grew up, where there family is, where their job is, and where they'd like to be.  There aren't that many people living in Carmel.  Not out of touch at all.

It is nice, but it is very expensive and there aren't a lot of easy-to-get, high-paying jobs there.

I, for one, have no desire to be there.  If I did I would have moved there already.

Do you live there?  I have no idea who you are.  If you don't live there, why not?  Nobody is stopping you.

I think one guy on this board lives there.  Huntley.  Maybe there are more, but it isn't even 1% of the 1,500 that are members of Ran's site.

I rest my case.

LOL
If you are not trying to be funny, then you are failing miserably at it.

[John_Conley]

This isn't humor, although some posts are.  Did someone seriously bring up Jenna Jameson and Paris Hilton.  I'd have bet dollars to doughnuts that that could only happen here if the thread were about the merits or necessity of artificial mounding.

Anyway, you are now trapped and resort to a last-ditch technique where you imply that this is all in jest?  Whatever.  I'm out of touch?  Don't think so.

Tons of people visit Carmel (I assume we're talking California and not Indiana).  Do many move there?  No, people move to Phoenix, Florida, or Las Vegas.  In droves.

Most people cannot easily afford Carmel and are not willing to do what it would take to live there.  End of story.

[Dan Kelly]

I'd have bet dollars to doughnuts...

Doughnuts, like golf courses, cost a good bit more than they used to.

Pounds to doughnuts, maybe?

Though I suppose the Brits have a considerably more charming term for "doughnuts"...

[Garland Bayley]

Give me a break John. I "desire" (your word) a relationship with Hiedi Klum. Am I going to try for it? No!

I desire living in Carmel.
I desire living in Bandon.

I think I am not unusual in these respects.

[JC Jones]

Give me a break John. I "desire" (your word) a relationship with Hiedi Klum. Am I going to try for it? No!

I desire living in Carmel.
I desire living in Bandon.

I think I am not unusual in these respects.

no, not in those respects...

[John_Conley]

Garland, people live in one place.  Two if they are very well-off and can manage to split time.  Runners-up and bronze medalists on the "where do I want to live" list tie for no check.  Hey, it's a nice place.  Lots of places are.  Nice places are either heavily populated or the prices go way up due to limited supply - or a combination of both.  Either way you hit equilibrium.  I keep getting ads for cheap mountain land in Tennessee.  Don't want to live there either.

[Craig Sweet]

I'd take Hedi Klum over Bandon any day!

[Garland Bayley]

Give me a break John. I "desire" (your word) a relationship with Hiedi Klum. Am I going to try for it? No!

I desire living in Carmel.
I desire living in Bandon.

I think I am not unusual in these respects.

no, not in those respects...

LOL,

Yes I know my "unusualness" is in different respects. Thanks for bringing everyones attention to it.
 

[Garland Bayley]

Minimum of 6 votes, with some getting as many as 85.

Thank you. I suggest that, when you do these ratings in the future, you include that information, course by course -- in a column of its own:

"Number of Raters."

I read his article and I see he waits until he has enough raters to have the result be "statistically valid". What that says to me is that whether he has 6 raters or 85 raters, the difference in result will be minuscule. This of course assumes he has done the statistics correctly.

[David Wigler]

The Madison Club is a new Discovery Land development in La Quinta, CA, which features a Tom Fazio golf course.  It is built down in the valley, and millions of cubic yards of sand and dirt were moved to transform the course into a rolling terrain with something like 25-40 feet of elevation change.  If I'm not mistaken, a barranca, or large trench, perhaps 20-25 feet deep, was built through the property, and the excess dirt was used to shape the course.

The course has large features.  Big fairways, big greens, big bunkers, and lots of water hazards.  The bunkering is ornate, with carefully trimmed edges.  I don't remember a single blind shot.  The course is not quite designed to be walkable, due to two, maybe three long walks and a few medium length walks from green to tee, which will prevent most from doing so.

The service level is already legendary, with stories of over the top service already filtering through the community there.

I didn't play the course, and I tend to like courses on more interesting land, but there is much to admire here.  The fairways are really wide, allowing some decision making on approach angles.  I did not see any par 4s I felt were driveable, but I don't hit it that far.

Some of the privacy berms were covered with flowers.  I'd say I saw a hundred thousand annual flowering plants out there, and I don't think I'm exaggerating.  Maybe only fifty thousand.

So the Madison Club is a modern day Shadow Creek type effort, with all the bells and whistles attached.  It's really wild, and not really my type of course, but I'm sure it's a gas to play.

John,

My guess is that the Madison Club was either not eligible or did not have enough raters to be statistically relevant.  It is very rare that a course blows me away and this one did.  I am an unabashed Fazio lover and this course instantly was one of my top three Fazio's ever.  I believe (Prepare for GCA heresy) that it is better than Bandon Trails and the only Fazio's I have played that are its equals are Victoria National and Shadow Creek.  I would be shocked if once it gets some raters out (Should it choose to allow them) it did not end up a bulletproof top 50 course in the country and the #1 rated course in the Palm Springs area - I really think it is that good.  

PS - The land is extremely interesting - you are correct that there is elevation all over the property.  It was completely man made but no less interesting (Like Whistling Straits).

[Kalen Braley]

Most people cannot easily afford Carmel and are not willing to do what it would take to live there.  End of story.

John,

Finally, I'm glad we both see eye to eye now....most people cannot afford to live in Carmel.  Just as your average joe golfer cannot afford to go to Bandon with the travel costs, green fees, lodging, and other expenses.

I'm glad we finally get to put this baby to bed...

[Tom_Doak]

There is ALWAYS some course that "must be too new or not have enough raters yet" or else it would have won because it's so great.  Maybe that's why it didn't make the list, but as the saying goes, wait til next year before declaring it #1.

[David Wigler]

There is ALWAYS some course that "must be too new or not have enough raters yet" or else it would have won because it's so great.  Maybe that's why it didn't make the list, but as the saying goes, wait til next year before declaring it #1.

Tom,

I have no idea if it would have won or will win next year.  It was the best new course I have played in the past two years.  That is simply my opinion and carries no greater value than that.

Dave

[Tim Bert]

You can still spend a night at the resort and play 36 holes during peak season for less than one round at Pebble Beach

This is like saying Paris Hilton isn't a slut because Jenna Jameson is a bigger slut.

Guys:  I know plenty about Average Joe, even Golfing Average Joe.  He has ZERO desire to get on an expensive plane ride to play golf in the middle of nowhere, regardless of the cost of play and accomodations.  

Even if he can get through Gating Item #1 (the wife saying "you want to do WHAT??[/i]), Gating Item #2 is plane fare.  I just searched for a flight on cheapest weekend of the year -- the first week of December -- between Thanksgiving rush and Christmas rush -- from Chicago to North Bend.  $550.  And it's a 7 1/2 hour flight.  

Average Joe does not take 7 1/2 hour flights for $550 to play golf and piss off the wife even for the "off season" rates.  Golfing Average Joe is a little more tempted (it might be on his "pipe dream" list, along with a three-way with Nicole Kidman and Salma Hayek), but frankly he's more worried about finding an extra $500 for Christmas presents at that time of year, or paying off the Christmas credit card debt in Jan-Feb.  

Average Joe does not go to Bandon.  Neither does Golfing Average Joe.  That's just a fact.  

You picked one half of one sentence out of my entire post to quote...  It's out of context, doesn't have anything to do with the broader point I was trying to make and at the end of the day I think the thoughts underlying your post agree with mine more than disagree.  I guess it just provided you with a nice opportunity for a porn reference analogy??

[Mike Hendren]

I was surprised that I've played ten courses on the list.  

I'd group Bandon Trails and Ballyneal at the top as neither has a weak hole in my opinion.  I'm totally enamored with Bandon Trails but might give the edge to Ballyneal as the whole exceeds the sum of its excellent parts in that it is the most seamless 18 holes I've played.  I'm inclined to leave it as a push, however as I believe BT is more demanding from the tee.  

Chambers Bay is excellent but a notch below in that I hit the same club on all four par threes and did not like the narrowness of the 8th hole and the driveable uphill par four with the Stillwellian green.  Again, plenty of room off the tee there but a little more challenging - a delightful place to drive the golf ball.

Doak's Tumble Creek continues to grow on me in its subtlety and I might give it the edge over the next grouping of Erin Hills, Creek Club and Olde Stone.  Olde Stone is impeccable with very nifty features that regrettably don't "work."  The Creek Club is repetitive and Erin Hills, while dramatic is too much of a battle.  

The Home Course, River Club and Classic Club are another notch down.  The Classic Club is a big, sprawling course fit for tournament play with little architectural merit save for the cool 17th green.  Norman's River Club has interest on the front, but the back is tightly routed through flood plain with an island green par three 17th that looks like it leaped off the page of a Myrtle Beach Chamber of Commerce brochure circa 1980.  (Editorial note:  Norman's shapers produce some excellent work, but apprently fall asleep on occasion).  The Home Course has some interesting fairway contouring but limited interest on and around the greens with a few notable exceptions like the cool 6th and 11th.  The two water holes (5 and 14 - I think I started on 10) were negative standouts.  I'd give it the nod over RC and CC due solely to its lack of pretention.

Mike

[Brad Swanson]

I am guessing that Greywalls didn't have very many rater visits, considering it is probably one of the most remote courses of the top 25, and it certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea either.

Cheers,
Brad

[Joe Bentham]

Joe has confused the length of a tip with the breadth of ones wealth.

John
Has absolutely nothing to do with it.  When your spending 5 hours x however many rounds they play, you tend to learn a thing or two about a person.   Nice quote though, sounds like a fortune cookie.

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