[Michael Dugger]

I've been pondering this for a while now....

It seems whenever we engage in discourse surrounding a new golf course, the statement "it's what the client wanted" comes up again and again as the reasoning behind why X, Y and Z went as it did....

So, it has me thinking, what would Jeff Brauer's personal golf course look like?  What would Tom Doak's, Mike Young's and Nuzzo's?

Paul Cowley, Brian Phillips and FBD....how about you guys???

Would you want the course to be able to host a championship, would it have...

two loops of nine or an out and back?
how many one shot holes, how many three?
a drivable par 4?
overall yardage
overall par
carts or walking?
turf grass(es)
style of bunkers
style of greens
tee box markers

For this thought exercise you have free reign.  If you aren't, pretend you are filthy rich, so rich money doesn't matter.  You can buy whatever piece of land to build on.  You can spend as much money as you want on construction.

What is your vision?  I am really curious.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

I am going to give you the completely honest answer to this question:  I don't know what it would look like.  I've got a philosophy of design, but I don't have any preconceptions about what I want to do in advance of having a client and a site.  And my tastes keep changing.

If I'm the client, then I would probably try to do a few things that I think clients wouldn't let me do.  But for exactly what that would be, it's back to the site.

The only things I think you could say about the finished product are generalities:  it would have a lot of variety, and it would have some significant movement in the greens.

[Michael Blake]

I don't want to speak on behalf of Mike Nuzzo and hopefully he will reply.

But I think his Wolf Point course might be pretty close to his ideal course, as his client appears to have given him and his team led by Don carte blanche.

[Ben Stephens]

Michael,

I agree with what Tom said, as an architect working in the construction industry as well as a golf course designer there are so many varieties in term of tastes, styles, shapes etc - and they vary over time.

Design is an evolutionary process it really a combination of what the client requires or likes and the designer interpreting the client's requirements as well infusing their design philosophy or approach and the site context whether its coastal, forest or residential as well as environmental conditions. Also cost is an important factor. The course I have worked on have small budgets - in which I find it more of a challenge.  

My approach is try something different to the current trends and 'also' surprise golfers to try and attract them to play the course over and over again - the element of fun is important as well as attracting golfers of all levels. This is good for the client as it is continual revenue to make the development sustainable.

We golf course designers could design the hardest golf course ever or architects - the most complex building, like the Guggenheim in Bilbao, but it is impractical in commercial terms and it would drive away most potential customers away. For example Oakmont - ('a one off') in a US Open setup would upset a lot of average golfers.

What I like about architecture and design is a lot of things are different - 'never the same'. Some designers have a similar approach all their career like Ely Callaway, Jack Nicklaus and Norman Foster (High Tech Architect) and others follow the trends or strive for something different.

Ben

[Jeff_Brauer]

Michael,

I could agree with Tom in the sense that my definition of ideal has changed over time.  That said, I could give you a blow by blow of what I would consider ideal now, at least in some areas, like total distance, etc.

I am fascinated with the old writings, where many of the gca's tried to describe their ideal course in simiar terms of length, variety, etc.  Of course no site ever lets that get done, except a flat site, which in itself isn't actually on my list of things to look for in an ideal course......

I think its a good academic excersise and I may try it when I have more time!

[jeffwarne]

Quote from Tom Doak
"If I'm the client, then I would probably try to do a few things that I think clients wouldn't let me do.  But for exactly what that would be, it's back to the site."

Tom,
Are you saying you've never had a site where you got to do exactly what you envisioned/wanted? Or you didn't do things just because you thought the client wouldn't want/like it.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I don't think I've ever done a golf course exactly as I wanted.  I am always collaborating with my own associates and with others [not to mention the clients], and to keep them engaged in the process it's essential for there to be some give and take.  I do wonder what it would be like if I went out and built 18 greens again myself as I did at High Pointe, but for now I'd rather be more productive than that and keep my talented crew gainfully employed.

[Ben Stephens]

My design teacher used to say there is never a 'perfect' design. There are always flaws and outside influences meaning that you don't always get your way to get a golf course exactly what you want.

I have been lucky with Rutland Water that the client has listened and taken on board my advice most of the time which does not happen very often. I understand where Tom is coming from as I have worked on 2 major building projects and there are so many different people's inputs and influences into the design.

The only way to do your 'perfect' course - is be your own client and buy the perfect land + build the course yourself OR a client that gives you a free rein over the design and construction and work on it 100% of the time. These situations very rarely happens.

[Marty Bonnar]

Michael,
quite a mad hypothetical, but nonetheless!:

I'd spend the longest time (and the most money) searching for the perfect site (which I'm not sure even exists, but it would be fun trying!)

Once site found and fully explored/mapped, I'd set out creating the holes with the MOST FUN that I could create. I suppose the finished product would most likely be a somewhat eclectic mix of historic reference, landscape pastiche, witty detailing and, most of all, surprise and delight at every turn. The design would be thought-provoking, slightly disconcerting and, most importantly, smile-inducing!

Hole #12, e.g.: A Hirono-inspired Zen landscape, fairway fringed with Rhododendron and Azalea and raked bunkers, a miniature temple partly hidden amongst the trees beyond the green. This long par-5 plays uphill to a Fuji-shaped greensite, drape-bunkered with snow-like sandy wastes and perhaps a scree-slope of gravel and boulders.

I'd guess the average golfer might hate it, but, I'm so rich anyway the place is only for me and my chums. You lot are, of course, cordially invited (well, everyone except Kavanaugh, naturally! )

Drea-ea-ea-ea-eam, Dream, Dream, Dream....

FBD.

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