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Brad Swanson

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University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« on: October 05, 2007, 09:14:59 AM »
I used to play University Ridge quite regularly as a grad student.  It was a great value and I personally enjoyed playing the course when the pace of play wasn’t an issue, which unfortunately is roughly only about 20% of the time.  I played UR during twilight for the first time in many years yesterday, and it will likely be the only time I ever play there again save for the occasional tournament or round with a visitor.  Taking 3 hours to play 11 holes is a dealbreaker for me, and the problem lies in the routing/sequence of the first 4 holes.  Phil McDade has commented on this in the past in a different thread, and I would like to go into more detail about the first 4 holes and their routing, pace of play problems.

#1 396yd par 4


Looks simple enough, a rather short par 4 with a wide fairway.  Unfortunately the slight dogleg right of this hole with no obvious hazard in the fairway on the right is the killer here.  Allowing the average golfer to see the green leads them like sheep to aim right for it off the tee despite the huge expanse of fairway "left of center".  This combined with the tendency of the avg golfer to slice leads to most opening tee shots to find the very thick tall grass.  In the 2 4somes that teed off before us, 6 of the 8 were looking for tee shots in the tall grass.  Its not fun watching group after group tee off and spend 5 minutes in the straw off the first tee.  My blood pressure was elevated about 10% before I even stuck a peg in the ground to tee off.

#2 546yd par 5


Do I even need to say anything here?  On a hole that I actually like for the better golfer, this is a terrible hole as the second hole.  Trouble short, right, long off the tee with a hazard to carry.  A largely blind green surrounded by trouble if the player tries to reach in two.  A ditch just short of the green with thick rough to gobble up lost balls.  BP up 25% here just on the tee.

#3  195yd par 3



A par three surrounded by trouble, swamp left and long, bunker short (or VERY tall grass short of the fronting bunker), bunkers right too.  The green is very shallow.  For some reason, many players that have trouble going right on the first few holes overcompensate and hit left into the wetlands here.  I was ready to walk in waiting on the tee.

#4  444/354 yd par 4



This hole is much worse than the diagram shows.  Anything 5 steps off of the fairway on the right is in the wetlands and gone.  The fairway rises and then falls in the landing area so many tee shots that appear good run through the fairway or even kick right into the rough or potentially the wetlands.  The approach is a mid/short iron to a very elevated green with death on the right, this shot is often struck off a downhill lie to boot.  The row of trees immediately left of the fairway give this hole a bowling alley feel that many people struggle with, even with a hybrid/fairway wood/long iron off the tee.  From the gold tees 444yds, the fairway is more elusive than a Brandon Webb sinker.  An hour and 15 minutes later you have played 4 holes and quite often want you  money back by this point.

I personally think that the pace of play issues would be improved if they flipped the nines, but I doubt that the management even cares as long as they keep the tee sheet filled.  The pace of play coupled with the chocolate pudding conditions of the greens in late afternoon (in October no less) will make me think twice about  playing the Ridge on a regular basis ever again.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 09:20:38 AM by Brad Swanson »

George Pazin

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Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 09:42:10 AM »
Sorry to hear about your frustration.

I guess the only real question I'd have is, why doesn't it clear up after these 4?

My home course, a muni, has a bottleneck at the 2nd hole. You walk off the par 5 opener, and there is the moderately challenging par 3 2nd (and that's being generous, no holes on this course are really that tough, for a decent golfer, anyway). There is almost always a group waiting on the tee, and not infrequently 2 groups. The only good thing is that it almost acts as a separator, so that it is relatively smooth sailing the rest of the round.

Maybe 4 holes is just too much to re-establish a decent pace.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 09:45:41 AM »
Sounds like the mowers could solve a lot of problems here.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 11:01:50 AM »
Another convert! I'm rejoicing even as I type this. I've mentioned my thoughts (mostly negative) to good friends about URidge, and they sort of give me this "huh?" look like I'm out of my mind. Nearly 20 years after it opened to much fanfare (the University of Wisconsin had long neglected to build its own course; they brought in RTJ Jr.; they obtained a nice piece of land, blah blah), I still don't get the appeal of this place.

Sometimes you run across courses that are more than the sum of their parts -- no particular holes stand out, but the totality of all 18 makes for an enjoyable round. URidge is the exact opposite of this -- it's full of holes with a great deal of individual merit (some are among the best in the area), but the overall experience of the round is less than it ought to be.

The reasons, many of which Brad touches on, are several-fold: the routing is poor, particularly the front nine; pace of play (related to routing, as Brad mentions) is almost always abysmal; its overly penal in parts (meaning, the difference between being in an ideal position and dead is often very small, as in less than 10-15 yards in some cases); it's a pain to walk (the course literally screams "better take a cart!" -- it's a pretty rugged piece of land in parts, with some severe up and down walks, and there are several long green-to-tee walks). The course employs rangers (in carts!), but I've never seen them do anything other that sit there and chat up golfers; I once played behind a group playing off the very tips and watched golfer after golfer barely elevate their tee shots and struggle to make the fairway (OK, that's my game, but at least I play off the shorter tees). I asked a ranger about the foursome, and he just sort of shrugged his shoulders.

But that's just poor operational details. The real problem is the course never does flow very well, at least not until the back nine. No. 1 is an OK opener, although tighter than it looks (left into the woods is also lost-ball territory) and it catches unsuspecting golfers.

No. 2 is awful, in my view. Let's say you clear the creek on your tee shot (not an onerous shot, if playing off correct tees). The choice is a really long second into a green surrounded by trouble, or a layup that requires the golfer to turn 90 degrees to the right, and it sort of looks like a mid-iron layup, because the fairway to the right just dead-ends into the woods. Of course, that's an awkward and stupid shot for most folks on a par 5, so many try to thread their ball into a tiny patch of fairway located between the two field-goal trees left of the green. Which, is a really hard shot to pull off, and often leads to yanks left into the tall grass, shots into a deep ravine short, or even wayward slices right into the woods. All of these decisions, and the penal nature of the green surrounds, makes for a hole that I guarantee takes an average of 20-25 minutes to play, from the time you step on the tee to the time you leave the green. It's a poor hole, and an absolutely awful one for pace-of-play reasons at that point in the round.

No. 3 I think is a very good par 3, but again poorly placed in the routing. It's a bitch of a hole, with a green as Brad mentions much shallower than the diagram. Long waits here on the tee, often two groups deep (this is where the rangers sit and chat up golfers).

No. 4 is a hole where the difference between a good ball and one that lands in jail is razor thin; the fall-off into the ravine to the right is STEEP and immediate. I actually think a semi-rationale play here is to aim into the trees left, hope you don't get stuck behind one, punch out in front of the green, and chip and putt your way to a par/bogey. From the back tees (set way down in the wetlands), this hole is almost over-the-top hard; from the shorter tees (played at @ 340-375 yards), it would make for a good match-play hole later in the round, because it does have a risk/reward element to it. But again, it's poorly placed in the rotation for pace-of-play reasons.

George:

The next hole, 5, is a medium-length par 3 that's pretty simple. But the one after that, 6, is a real slog of a par 5, well over 550 yards, almost always back into the wind, with a cape-like tee shot over a pond, and a massive, deep bunker left that runs alongside the fairway left as you approach the green. I once played it driver, 3-wood, 3-wood and didn't get to the green. Another hole that leads to a long round.

Dan:

Mowing might help some, but not enough to mitigate many of the pace-of-play concerns raised by Brad. I think they like "the look" of the tall grass too much to mow it down.

The course does improve, IMO, on the back nine, which is cut through some woods. The 10th is a lovely hole, with a nice wide ribbon of fairway surrounded by woods, and there are a couple of good risk/reward par 4s out there. It also ends very nicely (after the whacky par 5 16th -- split fairways, dozens of pot bunkers fronting the green, that sort of thing; and the boring par 3 17th with an elevated tee over a pond, something I'd never, ever seen on a golf course before playing URidge) with a strong, doglegging, uphill par 4 18th to a narrow but very deep green.

Brad's probably correct; flipping the nines would almost surely improve the pace of play, but I'm not sure the folks at URidge pay enough attention to that kind of stuff to make a change. A few years ago, there was talk of adding another 18-hole course nearby (the university has the land). I had hopes the university would hire someone unconventional to design the course. But golf in this area is generally thought to be built out, and they have put those plans semi-permanently on the back burner.

URidge -- a great opportunity missed.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 11:34:08 AM »

Sometimes you run across courses that are more than the sum of their parts -- no particular holes stand out, but the totality of all 18 makes for an enjoyable round. URidge is the exact opposite of this -- it's full of holes with a great deal of individual merit (some are among the best in the area), but the overall experience of the round is less than it ought to be.


Perfectly stated.  

I guess I'll try the Bergamont for a cheap twilight golf fix next week if time permits.  All I want is somewhere that isn't overly soft and overly pricey that I can scoot around in under 4 hours.  If I have a need for a round with some architectural meat on its bones, I'll head up to Lawsonia or make a road trip up to Marquette.

Cheers,
Brad

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 01:24:19 PM »
It screams take a cart?

My mom caddied for me in the Western Junior there and had to carry my bag 43 holes one day because of rain delays during the match play portion of the tournament.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2007, 01:52:22 PM »
Steve,
   I find the course to be an average walk, but its other transgressions are too frustrating for a working stiff with a family like myself to blow their weekly/bi-monthly round on.  Frankly, I'm starting to put architectural merit of the courses I play around Madison far down the list of priorities, behind pace of play, cost, and firmness amongst others.  Its a good tournament course that will be an even better test when the 16 or so new tees stretch the course to around 7300 yards, but that will also slow down the pace even more when the bogey golfer insists on playing the tips.

Cheers,
Brad

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2007, 01:56:05 PM »
Steve:

It's not a fun walk. Several long walks from the greens to the next tee; the walk alone from the 9th green to the 10th tee is a major hike -- they once were giving walkers rides to make the turn more quickly. The back nine in particular -- which as a piece of golf architecture I like much better than the front nine -- is one long up-and-down journey. And typical for modern, semi-high-end courses these days, they build the green fees to encourage taking a cart. I'm on their emailing list, and I get offers nearly every other week that provide very small differences between the walking fee and the riding fee, which to me tells me the course is inflating its walking fee and trying to encourage cart riding.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2007, 02:57:16 AM »

When I lived in Janesville, the old man would take us up and play there once or twice a year.

It is funny how everyone talks of flipping the nines, because I'm fairly certain that I played the back nine first almost every time I went there. It was at least three trips before I actually played it the "right" way, and I remember thinking that I didn't like it as much.

I agree with #4.....I've always despised it.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2007, 10:55:38 AM »
Brad,

Have you ever played The Oaks, just east of town on the way to Madison?

I know it was in GD's best new affordable when it opened a couple of years ago and the holes from the Interstate look all right. Was going to play there once on a drive back from Chicago but the wind was blowing stupid hard and I kept driving.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2007, 12:47:15 PM »
Jeff,
   The Oaks is on my short list of places to play in the Madison area, as is the Bergamont and Hawk's Landing (before it goes completely private).  Madison has some decent courses but nothing really outstanding unfortunately (private or public).  Drop me a line the next time you are coming through with your sticks in tow.

Cheers,
Brad  

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2007, 04:18:00 PM »
The Oaks is a solid layout -- good, not great, with a couple of odd holes, but generally a consistent track that moves in and out of some woodlands and around some wetlands. The guy who designed it, Gred Martin, is starting to make a name for himself in the Upper Midwest -- he also did Glen Erin near Janesville, WI, which some GCA posters have played and enjoyed very much.

I'd say the strength of the Oaks is its greens, particularly the contouring, and its bunkers, which have a somewhat artful, pushed-up look to them in many cases. I'd rate its par 3s as particularly noteworthy -- a long one that's all carry over a wetlands, a drop-shot one through a corridor of trees, a NADER-esque one tucked into the woods, and a cool skyline one at the highest point of the course, where club selection is tough because of its exposure to the winds.

Drawbacks -- some of the fairways run pretty close to each other, running the risk of a ball landing in an adjacent fairway; the darn highway (it sits right next to I-94) that makes for a few very noisy holes (as in, it's tough to hear your playing partners unless you're right next to them). It has two holes that are sort of goofy -- a par 4 that calls for driving the ball as far as you can toward a wetlands, with a shallow green tucked 100+ yards beyond the wetlands. Hit your drive short, and it's a looong carry (in part because it's usually against the wind), and you can't really run it long past the green or you'll end up in the woods. Friends of mine like it; I don't care for it much. The other is a par 5 along the east side of the course's property, with a goofy, nearly blind drive for the bombers and a goofy, pretty much all-blind 2nd shot layup for the short hitters. The course couldn't be flattened in that part of the course, due to some kind of undergound line/pipe. It's so odd the course often has rangers out on the hole, telling folks how to play it. I've come to like it, although it's a strange hole.

Overall, I'd rate it alongside Bergamont as two of the better courses to come on line in the Madison area lately. I actually prefer it slightly over Bergamont (the Andy North design), as I think it's more consistent and avoids the artifice of waterfalls running down the side of fairways (which Bergamont has...).

Brad:

Ever play Maple Bluff? It's considered the best private in the area, and one of the better ones in the state, with some very good and fast greens. I've only walked, and not played, but it looks really quite good, and has a very good reputation. THE old-money club in these parts.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2007, 06:46:35 PM »
Brad:

Ever play Maple Bluff? It's considered the best private in the area, and one of the better ones in the state, with some very good and fast greens. I've only walked, and not played, but it looks really quite good, and has a very good reputation. THE old-money club in these parts.

Hey Phil,
   I have not played or even seen Maple Bluff.  Unfortunately, my only connection to old-money is the spare change in my fishbowl that's been in there a few years.  I played Nakoma a few times in grad school (the chair of my dept was a generous member), and walk my dog by there on a nearly daily basis since we live nearby, but I don't have any other experience with the private clubs in Madison.  

Cheers,
Brad

William King

Re:University Ridge, never 'effing ever again
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2007, 10:45:47 PM »
Unfortunately, my only connection to old-money is the spare change in my fishbowl that's been in there a few years.

At least you've got that going for you, which is nice!  :P

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