[Brian_Ewen]

What happened to Mr Fazio ?




DONALD J. TRUMP HIRES FAMED ARCHITECT DR. MARTIN HAWTREE TO CREATE WORLD-CLASS GOLF COURSE IN SCOTLAND

New York, NY: 6th September, 2007, Donald J. Trump is teaming up with famed British golf course architect Dr. Martin Hawtree on plans to create what Mr. Trump hopes to be the finest golf course anywhere in the world.  With its majestic sand dunes stretching four miles along the sea in Aberdeenshire, Mr. Trump decided that Martin Hawtree was perfect to transform the Great Dunes of Scotland into a world class championship golf course, with construction scheduled to being in January, 2008.  

The course will be a Martin Hawtree Signature Design.  
 
Hawtree Limited, of Woodstock, England belongs to the longest continuous golf course architectural practice in the world. Hawtree, consulted by the R&A on some of the Open Championship links, is regarded as the leading authority of links golf and because of this coupled with Mr. Trump’s passion for building a true world class British Links Course in North East Scotland, Hawtree has been appointed as the lead architect on this development. He is world-renowned for his work at Royal Birkdale, Portmarnock, Lahinch and Carnoustie to name but a few.

“Martin Hawtree brings a distinct vision and flair to every course he touches,” Mr. Trump said.  “His work is impeccable.  He and I share such a passion for links golf and the tradition of the game is evident in the golf courses he designs. This is ideal for Trump International Golf Links, Scotland. This piece of land is so special and my relationship with Scotland is so special, that I wanted to work with the world’s best links course architect to deliver Trump International Golf Links, Scotland”

Hawtree said, “I am intrigued by balance in the composition of a golf hole, trying to ensure that the wider landscape surrounding a hole, in the case of this project towering dunes, is fully balanced by great playing interest within the fairway and green; that the one does not dwarf the other and that the interest is in some way generated by and in complete harmony with the surroundings.”  

A third-generation golf course architect, Hawtree has continued a family legacy that began in 1912.  The Hawtree list of courses built, reconstructed and/or consulted on totals more than 750, with partnerships and collaborations with historic golfing greats J.H. Taylor and James Braid.  The Hawtree history – begun by Frederick George Hawtree, who was joined by his son, Frederick William Hawtree in 1938 -- is revered within the industry for its experience and knowledge that are the heart of a multi-disciplinary practice known throughout the world.

Donald J Trump’s passion for Scotland stems from his pride in his Scottish roots.  His mother, Mary MacLeod, grew up on the Island of Lewis in Stornoway where her first language was Gaelic, before moving to New York City at age 20.  His decision to build the Trump International Golf Links, Scotland is the fulfillment of a long-held dream.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:

I read a shorter version of this announcement in GOLFWEEK yesterday.  I was quite surprised.  If an American architect had stuck his note in there when Tommy Fazio was under contract, it would have been considered tampering, at least under the ASGCA's rules.

I'm curious if Jeff Brauer sees this if he can comment on those rules.  I'm not a member but I try to avoid unpleasant accusations; if I'm European do I get a pass, or if it's in Europe do all the rules go out the window?

[paul cowley]

Tom .....neither Hawtree nor Tommy Fazio are members of the ASGCA and are unaffected by their guidelines....and even if they were, its not so much that they could not compete for the same commissions, but rather the methods they could employ while competing.......ethics being the standard of judgement.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

I knew that neither were members; but if Tommy Fazio was under contract with Mr. Trump then you (as a member) shouldn't talk to Mr. Trump about it, correct?

[Marty Bonnar]

'Guidelines'... HAH!

What a modesty prevents me from proper explication.

GET a PROPER set of RULES, RULES, RULES or FOREVER suffer the consequences.

The ASGCA and the EIGCA clearly have NO CLUE how to truely represent their 'members'.

I have no love for Union type stuff etc etc but honestly ye shall reap as ye shall sew...

Laughable...and the one single reason why I refused to 'join' the EIGCA. Why the H would I EVER want to? Golf Course Architects - If you EVER want to be taken seriously, GET A SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL ORGANISATION to represent you. Trust me, at the moment, you have not such a thing.

best,
FBD,

[paul cowley]

I know Tommy and I know Tommy has worked a lot for Trump in the past and I know Tommy has been linked to working on this site and I know its a high profile one and I know Trump is under scrutiny and might want to enlist local talent as part of the team to move it along....the change being his own thought or maybe Hawtree contacted him...but it made sense to Trump and I would be very surprised if Tommy was not still part of the team......just basic business. Has Tommy made a protest?

If both parties involved in this situation were members of the ASGCA, I still don't see a conflict......but others might.

[paul cowley]

'Guidelines'... HAH!

What a modesty prevents me from proper explication.

GET a PROPER set of RULES, RULES, RULES or FOREVER suffer the consequences.

The ASGCA and the EIGCA clearly have NO CLUE how to truely represent their 'members'.

I have no love for Union type stuff etc etc but honestly ye shall reap as ye shall sew...

Laughable...and the one single reason why I refused to 'join' the EIGCA. Why the H would I EVER want to? Golf Course Architects - If you EVER want to be taken seriously, GET A SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL ORGANISATION to represent you. Trust me, at the moment, you have not such a thing.

best,
FBD,

Martin....trust me...I checked out their Rules before attempting to join.

If they had a Proper Set, I probably wouldn't have tried to join.

Probably because if they had one of the proper sets, they wouldn't have been able to let me in.

[Jonathan Davison]

I heard it was tommy jnr and not tom fazio snr

[Brian_Ewen]

Who said it was Senior ?

[Jonathan Davison]

Brian
He is the only member of the ASGCA i think.
I heard it was Tom Fazio's nephew who was hired by Trump - Tommy Fazio Jnr.

[Brian Phillips]

'Guidelines'... HAH!

What a modesty prevents me from proper explication.

GET a PROPER set of RULES, RULES, RULES or FOREVER suffer the consequences.

The ASGCA and the EIGCA clearly have NO CLUE how to truely represent their 'members'.

I have no love for Union type stuff etc etc but honestly ye shall reap as ye shall sew...

Laughable...and the one single reason why I refused to 'join' the EIGCA. Why the H would I EVER want to? Golf Course Architects - If you EVER want to be taken seriously, GET A SERIOUS PROFESSIONAL ORGANISATION to represent you. Trust me, at the moment, you have not such a thing.

best,
FBD,

Martin,

There are rules within the EIGCA that all members have to follow ranging from what we are discussing here to having the correct insurance for your company.

I would be very, very surprised if Martin even came close to doing anything that would ruin his integrity or his very high morals in this case.

...and the only way you can make changes to an organisation is from the inside not moaning from the outside..  

All the best,

Brian

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom D,

Here are the applicable provisions right from the ASGCA web site:

IX. Members shall not attempt to obtain or offer to undertake any commission that they know is already under a legitimate contract or agreement with another golf course architect.

X.  Members shall not accept any commission until they have ascertained that any former legitimate contract or agreement with another golf course architect has been terminated.  This shall be done by soliciting information and evidence from the client or employer and the other golf course architect.


It has to be a pretty broad rule because owners have the right to change their minds, even after working with a gca for a while and finding out its not a good match.  Also, no professional organization really has the necessary enforcement power, other than to rescind the membership of an offending party.

Generally, I think most of us back away from other commissions, but I have been in that situation a few times, and always make sure the Owner writes the other gca a letter explaining they were terminated for the Owner's reasons.  I have even contacted the other gca in a few cases, although I am not sure that was always part of the code.

I notice there is no distinction between member and non member gca's in there.  

There is nothing in that press release that suggests that this didn't occur, unless someone has some inside info to the contrary.  

[Marty Bonnar]

Martin,

There are rules within the EIGCA that all members have to follow ranging from what we are discussing here to having the correct insurance for your company.

I would be very, very surprised if Martin even came close to doing anything that would ruin his integrity or his very high morals in this case.

...and the only way you can make changes to an organisation is from the inside not moaning from the outside..  

All the best,

Brian

Brian,
any idiot can get insurance.
What do Doctors, Lawyers, Architects, Planners, Engineers have in common?

THEIR professional Institutions REQUIRE FORMAL QUALIFICATIONS as a necessity of membership (and thus the ability to practice or 'hang out a shingle' as I believe our US cousins so quaintly put it).

It is my firm belief that the Institutions which represent GCA SHOULD DEMAND formal qualifications (which could indeed also take the form of loads of referrable experience) as a pre-requisite for a membership application.

This would put GCA on a par with those other professions and could only strengthen the position of the archie esp. when in relation to negotiation/meetings/correspondence with those other guys.

Just my opinion, mind...

FBD.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Martin,

What makes you think they don't require a lot of experience?

[Brian Phillips]

But not all idiots bother to get their insurance in order...that is the difference.

We could DEMAND formal qualification if there was an internationally recognised qualification....which there isn't.  

However, you do have to have a degree of experience to become an Associate and even more to become a Full member.  So that in itself is a qualification.

[Marty Bonnar]

Jeff,
I added that line in as I know they do!
I'm on our side - honest! My point is about giving GCA more 'credibility' - sorry, can't think of a better word as I type.
You'd never dream of appointing a building archie who wasn't a member of RIBA/the American equivalent - AIA? I know I wouldn't.

FBD.

[Brian Phillips]

Jeff,
I added that line in as I know they do!
I'm on our side - honest! My point is about giving GCA more 'credibility' - sorry, can't think of a better word as I type.
You'd never dream of appointing a building archie who wasn't a member of RIBA/the American equivalent - AIA? I know I wouldn't.

FBD.

That doesn't mean you can't design a house though.  As long as everything meets all the regulations there is nothing stopping anyone building a none RIBA designed house is there?

[Marty Bonnar]

Jeff,
I added that line in as I know they do!
I'm on our side - honest! My point is about giving GCA more 'credibility' - sorry, can't think of a better word as I type.
You'd never dream of appointing a building archie who wasn't a member of RIBA/the American equivalent - AIA? I know I wouldn't.

FBD.

That doesn't mean you can't design a house though.  As long as everything meets all the regulations there is nothing stopping anyone building a none RIBA designed house is there?

Exactly!
Any numpty can design and build a house. Just like any numpty can write a will, do exploratory surgery (I know I have), lay bricks, plumb, saw wood....

There are architectural technicians for example. They do a great job designing houses. They know all the techy stuff, everything necessary. BUT, if I was going to build a house, I'd appoint an Architect. SEVEN years of training, THREE qualifications, OFFICIAL Institutional recognition normally (sadly, not always) means I'll get a quality product - which might also be designed with flair, imagination and quality.

Worth the extra money, I'd say.

The GCA with the recognition brings comfort(?) to the client...

FBD.

[Rich Goodale]

There are a lot of professions that don't require any sort of qualification other than reputation, and in many of those many of the leading practitioners (past, present and future)are (or were) not members of any professional organisation.  Management Consultants and Prostitutes immediately come to mind, as do Golf Course Architects.

One could in fact argue that in those professions, the non-certified practitioners are at the cutting edge, whilst their trade union competitors struggle to keep up with them.  I far prefer this situation than the closed shop/anti-competitive system operated by other professions.  Fortunately, things are slowly opening up in these professions, even including including medicine and law.

Standards, yes.  Restrictive practices, no.  Caveat emptor, always.

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