[Patrick_Mucci]

How many courses built in the last 20 or more years continue to fine tune AND improve themselves with the original architect ?

Crooked Stick
Atlantic
Hidden Creek
Friar's Head

Is fine tuning required in order to retain their stature in the golf and architectural world ?

The four courses above would appear to be better today and probably tomorrow than they were at the outset.

What other courses built in the same time frame have improved through fine tuning with the original architect ?

And, what courses have been devalued through fine tuning with the original architect ?

[Tom_Doak]

Bandon Dunes has been fine-tuned for the better, too.  And Nicklaus has made TONS of revisions to Muirfield Village, although I don't know it well enough to comment on the improvements.

But, I would not agree that Crooked Stick is better today than the first time I saw it in 1981.  Longer and harder, yes, but not better.  

Of course there are some styles of work that take a little while to mature before they can really be complete, like the native bunkers of Friars Head; but if you are going back in and changing the routing or blowing up greens it's not because you are wiser, it's because you messed up the first time.

[Paul_Turner]

Pete Dye at Casa de Campo?  Not sure what he's done though.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

Teeth of the Dog has seen some remarkable changes over the years, several of them the result of hurricanes.  But with all the housing on the perimeter now, I can't say it's better than the first time I saw it.

[Tim Copeland]

Depending on which side you are on

Augusta National

[KBanks]

I can only comment as to Crooked Stick, but the present course is not an improvement on the 1976 version, the first year I saw it.

Pete Dye has rationalized the reduction of some of the wilder green contours as a necessary accomodation to modern green speeds. Far be it from me to quarrel with him on that. But, the course was better, in my opinion, before the introduction of some of the stadium type features.

Ken

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Copeland,

Was ANGC built in the last 20 or so years ?

And, did the original architect come back and fine tune it ?

Tom Doak,

I happened to like the old 16th green at Sebonack, but, it's  been blown up and replaced by another.

Would you classify the new 16th green as a fine tuning that's improved the hole, or that you didn't get it right the first time ?

Or, was this strictly an effort to make the course harder, ala Crooked Stick ?

How do you view the fine tuning at # 14 at CS ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I still haven't played the new 16th green at Sebonack, so I can't comment on whether I think it's an improvement.  It was an owner mandate to make the course harder and I am sure it accomplished that much.  I would have refused to change the old 16th green if I'd loved it [and probably Jack would have changed it for Michael], but I didn't love the green as it was before.

I don't know if I've seen the latest version of the 14th at Crooked Stick.  The last changes I saw were to move the tee for the PGA Championship back in 1991, and to take down the big tree through the dogleg.

[Jerry Kluger]

I don't know that I would call it fine tuning but nearly all the courses that have been removing trees are getting better. Ridgewood is an excellent example. Baltusrol has been fine tuning but I question the improvements.  The Ocean Course has been fine tuned and some aspects have been much more of an improvment than others.

On the other hand, as Mr. Cirba would suggest, those allowing trees to hamper playing lines are getting worse.

[Rich Goodale]

I think that TPC Sawgrass has been "improved" for the worse.  The 1982 version, with waste areas and greens as hard and slick as the hood of a 1963 Buick was a great course just waiting to become greater.  Instead, Beman (with Dye's collusion) neutered it so that it might become King of the PGA Tour Eunuch Courses, rather than the very special place it already was and was destined to become even more.

[JESII]

What can be expected when the inmates run the asylum, RFG?

[David Stamm]

While it has yet to re-open, Fazio has redone Pelican Hill which was built about 15 years ago. This will supposedly improve the conditions there as they have had drainage issues. I really don't know what design changes have been made, but these were highly touted Fazio courses (until recently, some would say his best) have been closed since the beginning of last year if memory serves.

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