[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

I have purposefully avoided answering this question as I neither accept the original premise (the two named as the best two on Long Island) nor the list of choices from which to choose #3. In addition, my well-known love of the Black I feel would put me into a similar situation as asking an architect to rate a course he designed and being able to do so without any question as to his being free of prejudice.

I did, though, want to answer one particular remark you made about the greens on the Black.

You wrote, "How a consulting architect could study that golf course and not recommend expanding those greens is beyond me.  Maybe he did.  If so, I think it he did a rather poor job of selling the concept, especially given the influx of money from the Open would allow this to be accomplished..."

When the USGA was considering awarding the Open to the Black, the decision was influenced partly on what it would take to get it into U.S. Open condition and what it would cost to do so.

the first list of suggested work included recovering many green areas that had been lost. Unfortunately, though the USGA has very deep pockets there were also limits to what would be both fair and reasonable to spend; and that figure was exceeded.

The decision to not recover the greens was made because of the costs involved by the USGA. It was recommended to do so, and done quite strongly, but as it was, more than $3,000,000 was spent on the restoration and it turned out to be a pretty good job that they did.

The consulting architect couldn't overcome the budget limitations...

[Mike Sweeney]

if it FI is part of Suffolk then it should qualify IMHO. and the queen's pic is still on our money in Canada - therefore.....

Sorry, Fishers is out. Title of the thread is "Long Island" not Suffolk County or New York. We are discussing golf courses, a tangible asset not a government which is a fairly intangible asset. Feel free to start a thread on Suffolk County Golf Courses! By the way Brooklyn and Queens are part of Long Island, but Dyker Beach does not make the cut!

[Gerry B]

if that is the case - Maidstone finishes 3rd (voted under protest)

[Mike Sweeney]

Wayne,

I have purposefully avoided answering this question as I neither accept the original premise (the two named as the best two on Long Island) nor the list of choices from which to choose #3....

Phil,

The purpose on this thread was to discuss old versus new on Long Island. I believe that BB may be the perfect blend of old and new, so let's hear your thoughts.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I think you have to include The Creek.
And, forget about all that history and tradition junk, GCGC is a wonderful golf course.

With respect to making a selection, wouldn't the supreme test be: which courses you'd prefer to play day in and day out, and not just randomly.

If that was the case, I can't imagine too many selecting BPB.

In addition, if you'll accept my amendment, let's fix the test from the back tees.

I think that would eliminate Shinnecock and Sebonack.

Maidstone, NGLA, Piping Rock, The Creek, GCGC and Friar's Head would seem to be reasonable contenders.

Can you go wrong with any of them ?

From the members tees all of them are spectacular.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I think Maidstone is a great course, but it is far from 3rd best on LI.  Bethpage Black is incredible in spite of the 14th green messup.  Obviously, not many of you have played Engineers.  It is far better than Maidstone, Creek, Piping Rock, ect.  I absolutely love Friars Head and do feel that it gives Engineers a good run.  In response to an earlier thread about greatness, Piping Rock is a course that continues to grow upon you--it is significantly better than the Creek.  However, the Creek has 6-16 which is beyond awesome--Unfortunately, 1-5 are only so-so and 17 and 18 are a letdown.  GCGC has a quality which could lead to a #3 ranking and I am very fine with that.  I m pretty certain that I've played there multiple times more than just about anyone else on this site.  There is a restoration that made a course that felt overated become truely awesome--when it was over-treed, Nassau offered better features--more green movement, interesting doglegs, diverse bunkering (not to be found anymore after 3  rebunkering projects), better resistance to scoring.  The #3 best course should be considered among Bethpage Black, GCGC, Friars Head, and Engineers--they are all worthy of this spot!

[Steve Lapper]

Pat has it mostly right.

 There are so many well-considered contenders that fairly compete for any hypothetical third spot. I've played nearly every course mentioned on this thread multiple times and would be hard pressed to place one distinctly ahead of another in some sort of perfectly quantitative order. Instead I can build a decent case for what comes close.

 Yes, courses like the Black with its immense scale and grandeur, (loved or hated for its difficulty and relatively simple greens) qualify it for lofty consideration. Yes, it is a grind and not a course anyone would seek to sate their daily appetite, but that shouldn't diminish its appeal, nor weaken several of the planets finest examples of par 4's and a par 5. Unfortunately, it doesn't pass the Lapper-Mucci test of walking from the 18th-to-the-1st to tee it right back up. Garden City and The Creek with their quirks and stylistic features work very well, but I have a hard time putting Maidstone anywhere near that elite next 4-5 we seek to pick from. While a handful of holes are indeed magical and well-sited on the native topography, and the seduction of the nearby Atlantic Ocean and its inbred social x-rays at the neighboring pool & cabana are quite visually entertaining, most of the rest of the remaining features are nearly non-descript and void of real architectural interest. The green complexes are hardly special or truly unique. Perhaps it wins merit on views but I hardly think it tops GCGC, The Creek or Friars Head.

Further distilling this assessment, whoever thought The Creek had "the best view in L.I" was sorely mistaken or delusional for no line of sight there rivals the looks off the Eastern side of Sebonack. Unfortunately, Sebonack doesn't rival a Friars Head for variety and shot values as its  few ground game green-front openings do little to encourage creativity and its small green surfaces over-punish anything but outright perfection (for now). Thus, IMHO, Friars Head or the Mens Club are likely the surviving contenders for the #3 slot. Both offer up variety, creativity, highly interesting green complexes. Both offer up what NGLA and Shinnecock so successfully represent, a links-like test and both continue to get so much better with age. Both are great clubs that espouse the highest values of the game and both "get it" out there by remaining highly private with little, if any, fanfare desired. Just IMHO


BTW...Pat. tell us...isn't it fair to say that nearly all of the Mens Club is well shielded from any public street view whatsoever (unless of course you live close by to Ms Lucci)? Very private for a very good reason.

[Jason Blasberg]

Steve:

Go play Engineers with Richie J. and then re-evaluate.  It stands ahead of the Creek and Piping Rock by a consirable margin, IMO.  It also stands above GCGC as a golf course but the total experience at GCGC adds points for me to render them about equal but there's far more shot variety at Engineers.

Friar's still nudges out Engineers for me.

[Steve Lapper]

Jason:

  Planning on it. As you know, It's been a while since I've been over there and thus anxious to see all the great work that has sparked such effusive praise. To give this thread an honest answer, I had to use only my current in-person impressions. I have no doubt your assessment and comparisons (along with those of RMDs) are likely wholly valid.

   Maybe you can join us? Early Sept. looks to be the call.

[Jason Blasberg]

Steve:

I'd love to join you.  Keep in mind they aerate fairways the week of 8/27 (greens next week).

When I first played Engineers about 15 years ago it was unlike anything I'd seen but it was very cramped off many tees and play was really dictated on several holes.  Most notably the tree blocking the inside of the dog leg on 4 and off the tee on 12 (old 11).  Then about 6 years ago I saw it again and thought this place would be unbelievable if they only took out about 1,000 trees and fixed some greens.  

Then I saw it again two seasons ago and it blew me away (just ask Mike Sweeney about my emails to him as I was walking around the course).  The reclaimation of the 16th green pad and the redo of Duane's 6th green alone are a dramatic improvement.  When you factor in the restoration of "2 or 20" (by Gil Hanse) all the tree removal, bunker work and other green work by Tripp Davis, especially on 8, the result is a complete transformation (or restoration whatever you want to call it) from the course it was only 6-7 or so years.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()