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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Surprises and disappointments
« on: June 30, 2007, 07:52:31 AM »

Matt Cohn’s excellent post on America’s most underrated courses, set me thinking about those unexpected surprises and disappointments in my limited experience in the UK.  I’m not trying to suggest that these courses are underrated or overrated, but merely that my expectations (however wrongly founded) were either greatly exceeded or dashed.

Surprises:

1.   Seascale
2.   Northumberland
3.   Crowborough Beacon
4.   Littlestone
5.   Stoneham
6.   New Zealand
7.   Cleveland
8.   Sherwood Forest
9.   Ipswich
10.   Yelverton

Disappointments:

1.   The London
2.   Frilford Heath
3.   Carden Park
4.   Manor House Hotel/Bovey Castle
5.   Southport & Ainsdale
6.   Nefyn
7.   East Sussex National
8.   The Oxfordshire
9.   Moortown
10.   Worcester G & CC


Seascale.  I first played Seascale MANY years ago and I was immediately bowled over by the rough and tumble of the site, far greater than I had imagined.  I was particularly struck by the quality of a number of holes, namely the 3rd, 8th, 9th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 17th and 18th.  Return visits have reinforced those first impressions.

Northumberland.  Although I had been there as a lad I didn’t remember anything about the course until I played there a few weeks ago.  Quite a lot of it is heathy, with plenty of heather plus broom and gorse.  Mark Pearse, my kind host, would be better equipped to describe the star holes, so abysmal was my play, but it is a classy test of golf with a refreshing mix of types of hole and, therefore, requirements expected of the golfer.

Crowborough Beacon.  I played this the day after playing Royal Ashdown Forest for the first time, so I did not expect as much of Crowborough.  But it is a very interesting course in its own right, with a couple of great holes, the 2nd and 6th, and plenty of variety, especially in the choice of green sites.  The superb views from the clubhouse are irrelevant to the course, but they enhance the experience.

Littlestone.  I didn’t really know what to expect, other than that the 17th was a highly rated par 3.  First impressions before playing the course suggested that the very flatness of the site might make for a dull round.  How wrong I was!  I remember with affection a number of the two-shot holes: 4th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 16th.  I was sorry not to be able to attend Buda Cup there.

Stoneham.  This is a genuinely underrated course in a non-descript suburb of Southampton.  How much, if any, of Willie Park’s original course survives I cannot say, but great golfing use is made of the undulating site.  At under 6,400 yards with a par of 72 it looks short on the card, but it feels several hundred yards longer and the driver is required on plenty enough holes.  Good holes include the short par-4 3rd, 462-yard 4th, the delightfully cross-bunkered 6th, another cross-bunkered hole the 11th and good downhill driving holes at the 14th, 15th and 17th.

New Zealand.  Flat as a pancake, but well served with plentiful heather.  The trees are handsome but not choking, and there are some very individual holes.  The clubhouse is wonderfully archaic.  I found the secretary to be most amiable, despite his reputation for being Muirfield-like!

Cleveland.  The industrial skyline is horrid, there is a caravan site adjoining, there is no sight of the sea (but I think there have been alterations since I was last there) and the ground looks uninteresting.  As with Seaton Carew, as soon as you are out on the course you forget about all these things.  As I have a feeling that the course has been changed I will not attempt to single out specific holes.

Sherwood Forest.  Notts, Lindrick and perhaps Coxmoor get the star billing in this coal-mining corner  of England, but I would leap at another chance to play this handsome and very strong course.  Despite the name this is very much a heathland-style course, the trees rarely entering normal play.  The back nine is seriously demanding, an incessant (although not boring) string of long and powerful par 4s.  The front nine has charm aplenty.  A must see.  

Ipswich.  This is another heathland course, and I believe that since last I was there there has been further revival of the heather.  Lots of fine longer holes with intelligent bunkering.
 
Yelverton.  The photos on Philip Gawith’s recent thread about Yelverton say everything you need to know about this entertaining course, which see.

The London.  I just found both these courses bland – challenging, of course, to a golfer of my inability.  The staff made me very welcome and they were proud of their courses, but neither course had any personality.

Frilford Heath.  I played here quite a bit as an undergraduate, the Red and Green courses being very typically heathland.  But when I returned in 1999 or 2000 I was disappointed in that I found neither course as uplifting as I remembered them.  The bunkering seemed tame, there was a sameness to the flat holes in the middle of the property and the place had become commercial.  As for the third course, the blue, it was wholly unmemorable apart from a par-3 over water.  It is built on agricultural land totally unlike the red and green courses.
 
Carden Park.  I hate to write nasty things about Nicklaus courses, because he is one of my great heroes.  But this, like The London, is dull and uninteresting.  There is more character to the older course here, eccentric though some of the holes are.
 
Manor House Hotel/Bovey Castle.  Once the eccentricity of the 1st hole (now rebuilt) is over there is a good stretch of holes along the River Bovey, but once that is left behind most of the back nine is utterly forgettable.  I find it hard to think that this was designed by the same Abercromby who showed such individuality at The Addington, Worplesdon and Coombe Hill.  In fairness, when I visited the whole place seemed to be very run down and maybe under its new owners it is revitalised – it jolly well should be at the price!
 
Southport & Ainsdale.  My judgement may be clouded by the fact that I found the welcome in the Professional’s shop and in the clubhouse somewhat frosty.  However, the start is good (a 200-yard par 3 never an easy opening hole), the 2nd is a fine par 5 and the 3rd (named after Braid) a strong hole.  But I forget everything after that until the famous 16th (Gumbleys).  It is just back and forth across a flat plain surrounded by housing.

Nefyn.  I know, I regularly suggest that visitors to North Wales should include Nefyn on their itinerary, for it is an outstandingly scenic course, and all the romance of dropping down to the beach-side Ty Coch Inn for a pint is fun.  There are some good holes, but there are also many very ordinary holes with some pathetic home-produced bunkering, and while the back nine is spectacularly sited on its rocky promontory a number of the holes are on the verge of unplayable.  The condition leaves a lot to be desired, but the green fee is cheap.

East Sussex National.  When I first played this course some European Tour event had just taken place there and the course received rave reviews in the press.  They said that it had brought the finest elements of US Tour course design to these shores.  I cannot find any touch of Sawgrass or Riviera, Spyglass or Bay Hill here.  It is a rather featureless pair of courses wandering aimlessly round a pleasant bit of Sussex countryside.
   
The Oxfordshire.  While it is exciting to take on the water holes, the rest is an eyesore – looking dreadfully artificial and hardly helped by the lack of interest in the ground on which the course is built.

Moortown.  Yes, Gibraltar survives, but much change has been forced on the course by the disappearance of a neighbouring part of Sand Moor and the entire sale of Moor Allerton for house building.  The trees are overcrowding the course, which keeps changing its nature because of the enforced changes, and while it is undoubtedly a good test of golf, it lacks the spirit and character of MacKenzie’s original – and there’s Alwoodley on hand just around the corner to reinforce the point.

Worcester G &CC.  Mackenzie, too, in part, but so disappointing was it that I remember nothing about it.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 09:45:34 AM »
Mark

I would agree that Nefyn & S&A were disappointing.  I can understand the difficulty of Nefyn, for all its beauty, the land isn't very suitable for British golf - meaning it would take a good archie with some cash to transform this land into a good course.  In the case of S&A, I don't get it.  The property is cracking and I can't help thinking more should have been made of it.  Worcester is a strange one for me.  The bones are there for a very good course despite the club allowing the course to get mucked up by rank amateurs.  However, with the relentless planting of trees, the course is getting choked to the point where the obvious strategies of the course as dicatated by the green complexes have been severely compromised.  

There are a few other courses I would add.  

Westward Ho! was perhaps the biggest disappointment of all.  I had very high expectations, perhaps too high, and was let down by the many very open holes which were rather featureless or on boggy ground.  Additionally, I was than enamoured with the sea rushes as a hazard.    

There are a few Open courses which failed to impress.  Lytham has to place highly on this list - I mistrust nearly all courses which rely so heavily on bunkering.  I just didn't like the look of a sea of sand on so many holes.  Troon is also quite high on the list.  Coming back is such a slog that there is little fun to be had.  This of course means that several holes on the front play similar not my cup of tea.  Last on the Open list is Turnberry.  I was really hoping this last visit would change my mind about the place, unfortunately, it only hardened my negative beliefs.  The course just doesn't seem to have much craftiness to it.  Its as if Ross just expected the views to take care of business.  Its a pity that these inland holes aren't better because the run from 4-8+9 is terrific.

Heading back toward lesser lights, Tadmarton Heath was a disappointment.  Though there are many interesting holes, the greens are for the most part very flat and a bit boring.  Most of the front 9 is a procession of driver - short iron with little in the way of wonky lies to hold my interest.  

Finally, I couldn't let the North Carolina escape.  I was glad to play #2, but I found the formula of the course very much the same all the way around.  Difficult to tell where to land the ball on the greens and the penalty for missing is the relentless awkward chip.  In a way, this was the most un-Ross like course I have ever seen.  I do like3 that it is relatively easy to get around with one ball - I just wish there was a bit more variety to the green complexes.  Additionally, I hated what has been done to the complex and clubhouse.  Its a Disney World atmosphere with people stumbling all over the place - its not my sort of scene.  Pine Needles, what can I say.  I liked the course, but I don't think its all that.  I suspect my expectations were too high, this is probably true for #2 as well.  The bunkering seemed OTT (especially with bunkering on inside corners protected by trees).  I would like another crack at it, but won't pay $150 for the priveledge.

I too would agree with Mark in stating Stoneham and Littlestone were great surprises.  In fact, the rolling nature and enclosed feeling of Stoneham reminds me a bit of Beau Desert.  Littlestone had loads of subtleties which I tend to enjoy.  There seems to be a surprise around every corner.

Big surprises from the West Country were Perranporth and West Cornwall.  I could happily be a member of either of these courses and look forward to 2-3 games every week.

Both Southerness and Castletown exhibit the raw nature of what links is really about.  Very natural courses without any pretenses.  There aren't many great holes, just a steady diet of satisfying golf.  I fear for Castletown because they are in the middle of improving the course and I think the developers could risk losing the charm of the place.

Huntercombe proved to be an eye opener for me.  I didn't know what to expect, but I found the variety of the course, from the lies, to the green complexes and of course the hollows an absolute joy.  I think the more I play this course the more I will like it.  

More recently, Handsworth was a real shock in the quality of golf to be had.  One would never know there was a course tucked into this concrete jungle, but it proved to be a wonderful oasis with some of the oddest bunkering schemes I have encountered in Britain.  Just down the road is Sandwell Park, I really must get back there.  Some of the wilder holes away from the clubhouse left a lasting impression on me.  The mix of reachable par 4s with seemingly impossibly long and difficult par 4s is impressive.  There is hardly a flat lie to be had once away from the clubhouse.  

Last, I have to mention Kington.  Its old time golf to the ultimate degree.  I thought I was a seasoned golf traveller until I laid eyes on Kington - a moment I shall never forget.  I couldn't see a course, only a large hill filled with sheep.  When I asked where the course was the reply was simply "what ever do you mean?".  I shall return next Friday for a day's golf and drink and I can think of no place I would rather be for such festivities.  The members are a rough lot, but friendly and I am confident that they won't muck with the gem that is Kington.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 11:37:15 AM »
Here's my list--same caveats--just my initial impressions based on what I THOUGHT the course was going to be like:

UK
Surprises:
Royal County Down (never heard of it until I entered an event)!
TOC--better than I expected--heard "American horror" stories
Wallasey
St. Andrews The New Course


Disapointments:
Muirfield
Nairn
Pyle & Kenfig
Gleneagles (Kings course)

USA
Surprises:
Monroe Golf Club (NY)
Round Hill CC
NGLA--I had no clue about it until I played for the first time

Disapointments:
Oak Hill
Crown Colony (TX)
Stanwich
Hartford CC
Forest Highlands
Adios

 

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 12:08:15 PM »
UK

Surprises:
(none that I can think of... although luffness new was better than I expected).

Disapointments:
Slaley Hall
Kingsbarns (still good, but i had expected more)
South Herts

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 04:31:19 PM »
Mark,

I'm delighted you enjoyed The Northumberland, I think it deserves more recognition than it gets but then I'm biased.  I keep meaning to write a profile for the My Home Course section, perhaps this will spur me on to do so.

G Jones,

I heartily agree with you regarding Slaley Hall.  My firm has corporate membership (it's that sort of place) but I haven't played there for years.  There's much, much better golf to be had in Northumberland, particularly at Northumberland itself and Goswick.  Slaley is an unremittingly hard, dull trudge with several really poor holes.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 05:29:09 AM »
Surprises:

Berwick upon Tweed (Goswick) - a wonderfully basic clubhouse but a proper links, tough but very good.  It even has a railway running along it!

Brancepeth Castle

Tyneside - Perhaps not a great course but very enjoyable on rolling hills alongside the river Tyne.

Disappointments:

Slaley Hall (both courses) - a Ryder Cup course?  This was in the running for 2010.  Which proves that quality of course must be very low on the list of priorities.  It's long and it's tough.  It's on a hill, in fact it's a great place and a great piece of land.  A shame then that the courses themselves are so disappointing (though there are some great holes which show how good it could have been).  Rubbish and a real wasted opportunity.

Moor Allerton - did this club really sell a MacKenzie course to build this?  How sad.

In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 05:51:33 AM »
G.Jones,

Expected more from Kingsbarns  :o

I note you said its still good, but im interested to know what would have made your thoughts on the course even better?

Whenever I play through the Kingsbarns routing in my mind, all i can think about is variety of strategy and subsequent shotmaking and a ton of fun to boot!

James
@EDI__ADI

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2007, 12:14:03 PM »
James,

I only just spotted that I hadn't replied!

I'm one of those people who prefer fairways with fairly straightish edges, 1930s style... and so while Kingsbarns is great, I just can't look at it without thinking how brilliant it would look if they had just gone for a little less amoeba style fairway shapes - there seems to be unnecessary curves everywhere in some sort of attempt to copy the style of the old course.

More of a personal disappointment than a disappointment with the actual course.

Plus I'm not a fan of the downhill par 3 around the 12th or something... it just isn't very pleasing on the eye. But each to their own!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2007, 01:12:59 PM »
UK

Surprises:
(none that I can think of... although luffness new was better than I expected).

Disapointments:

Kingsbarns (still good, but i had expected more)



GJones,

This sounds a bit like Oliver Twist.

How much more can you expect? Do tell.

Bob

Jonathan Davison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments New
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2007, 02:25:53 PM »
Mark Rowlinson
I also look forward to your views on golf courses, especially in the north east of England. I have played nearly every courses in and around the north east apart from The Northumberland and Seascale. Why I'm not really sure as a working golf course architect I really should have visited these two???
Nevermind  I'm sure I will visit these in time, more surprises that I would include - Penrith, Brampton, Cockermouth, Tyneside and Brancepeth Castle.
James
I will always agree with you regarding Kingsbarn pure class. ;)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 02:08:19 PM by Jonathan Davison »

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2007, 03:19:25 PM »
UK

Surprises:
(none that I can think of... although luffness new was better than I expected).

Disapointments:

Kingsbarns (still good, but i had expected more)



GJones,

This sounds a bit like Oliver Twist.

How much more can you expect? Do tell.

Bob

I always expect a little more..  :P
But especially for 160 pounds (320 dollars) a round.

Mark_F

Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2007, 07:16:09 PM »
Mark,

Like you, I found Seascale to be an immensely rewarding surprise. It's scruffy nature is part of its appeal, in that it is just golf, some pretty impressive variety amongst it holes, from the side sloping 5th fairway and green, the great old cross bunker on 6, and the fantastic dunes holes towards the end.

Whittington Heath was another great surprise.  I had only heard a mention or two on here from Paul Turner, then another mention from you in a UK gof travel book, and found a fascinatingly low profile course with only a couple of holes that grab you straight away, but the rest with subtle little conundrums that make a very pleasant and fascinating course with a terrific set of greens.

Southerndown is another that escapes notice to some degree, but is a course that really shouldn't be missed if anywherre close by, i.e in the UK.

I have voiced my vast disappointment previously in two famous Royals, St Davids and Birkdale.  The former has a couple of good holes toward the end amongst the dunes, but for the most part is flat and uninspiring, with nothing even remotely memorable for me in the first 14 holes.  

Birkdale I just don't get how anyone could think it is a top 30 World course. Aside from 12, 15 and 16, it is horribly uninspiring, about as intersting as an egg white omelette for breakfast.

Woodhall Spa is another that I have a twinge of disappointment with.  Whilst I can remember many of the holes some 11 years after I played them, which perhaps says something, I also remember a fairly uninspiring set of greens, with much of the short game interest found in bunker shots around the greens.

It also had a fairly unimpressive set of par threes, I seem to recall.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 07:16:31 PM by Mark Ferguson »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2007, 08:26:23 PM »
Mr Jones
Re-Kinsbarns price , I presume you are talking as an ex-Panmure member ?

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Surprises and disappointments
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2007, 10:05:26 PM »
Mr Jones
Re-Kinsbarns price , I presume you are talking as an ex-Panmure member ?

I'm still a member at Panmure even though I rarely get a chance to get up to Scotland. Plus whenever I played Kingsbarns before I lived in St Andrews so it was at a much cheaper rate...  
I was talking 160 from the point of view that they charge visitors that as the general price at this time of year... and I'm not sure it's worth quite that much :-)

Why, are there discounts you can get?

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