[Sean_A]

George

I am tired of the this Pittsburgh pussyfooting.  I would like us to go through Carnoustie hole by hole and give an honest appraisal.  All others are welcome to add comments.  

Note: My comments are based on handicap players unless otherwise noted.

POSITIVES: 1) The slight rise from the LZ to the green. 2) The fronting hump and bunker. 3) The angled green. 4) The drop down and generally left to right movement of the fairway which "envcourages" a poor angle for most of the green for the guy hitting driver.  

NEGATIVES: 1) The fairway bunker is unnecessary.  The player already has a poor angle if he is over there.  I would like to see the option of going to the left side of the green or the aggressive play over the top to the right side of the green.  Unfortunately, the bunker requires one to splash out.  The rough and poor angle is all it takes to send the message home - PENAL BUNKER.  2) The water as OOB is unnecessary.  I know its a long shot at going that far left, but Tiger did it so don't laugh off the suggestion.

VERDICT: Not a bad hole, but a perfect opportunity to let the land speak for itself lost.    

SUGGESTIONS: 1) Fill in fairway bunker and while we are at it, the two short of the mound near the green.  If a guy is there after two he is already in bad shape. 2) Call the burn what it is, a hazard.



TOTAL OF BUNKERS FILLED IN: 3 (edit: Paul says keep 2, that fine, new total 1) (edit 2: Both Rihc and George like the right fw bunker.  While I think it a waste of resources and very unlike the Scots to be willy nilly with the their cash, I reluctantly agree to keep the bunker.  New total 0)  SORRY, this is the Richard edit.  He leans toward eliminatiing the right fw bunker and his word is final - NEW TOTAL 1

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Those two bunkers by the green are fine.  They just mimic what would have been a sandy faced dune in the old days.  A natural place for them.

[Ally Mcintosh]

i really like the idea of this thread... for those of us trying to learn, there is nothing better than detailed analysis of a hole (and hopefully course) that is also accompanied by a diagram...

...for what it's worth, i think i'm with sean on this one... the fairway bunker is superfluous... the two short greenside bunkers possibly play a part however in making that line appear even more fearsome... also without them you have the only bunker on the hole completely blind to the first time player (although this i guess is still the case with or without the other two)...

...anyway, more of this please... i'd love to see analysis of the whole course (with pictures being the vital missing link in most threads - with most holes discussed, i either don't know them at all or have lost the subtleties of design in the depths of my memory!)

thanks,
ally

[Andrew Mitchell]

I agree that this is an excellent idea, keep the holes coming Sean.

I also can't understand why a burn or stream would ever be OOB - the penalty as a water hazard should be sufficient. Having looked at this graphic I'm amazed Tiger could be so wild as to find it, particularly as on the graphic the burn seems to be bending away from the hole!

[Mark Pearce]

Isn't the fairway bunker almost the perfect example of the difference between "penal" and "strategic" design? The strategic design allows the player to go safely right away fromthe OOB/burn, even though it doesn't give the best angle of approach and punishes him with a more difficult second shot.  The penal approach knows that the right shot is left side and punishes the player who misses it either way.

I agree, by the way, that the burn should be a water hazard, not OOB.

[Brian_Ewen]

I remember seeing a 1937 course map , and if I remember right , there was only the one bunker , the greenside one.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Those two bunkers by the green are fine.  They just mimic what would have been a sandy faced dune in the old days.  A natural place for them.

Paul

I am not too fussed about the pair of bunkers in the front of the dune.  They may mimick something that existed however long ago, which I spose means you think they are attractive?  This could be true, but the dune could be attractive on its own and do the bunkers enhance the strategy of the hole?  Possibly a slight amount as Ally pointed out that perhaps the bunkers cause fear for those going on this line.  However, I would prefer the more subtle approach of allowing the greenside bunker to do its job.  I am not convinced these bunkers are really worth the effort and money to maintain, but I as I wrote earlier, they are for the most part a non-issue in determining the quality of the hole.  They can stay if you like!

Ciao

[Steve Kline]

What if the fairway was extended and widened on the left side and the fairway bunker moved from outside the right side of the fairway to a more central bunker within the left side of the fairway? This would provide the safe tee shot to the right with no trouble but a more difficult approach. Meanwhile the left side would have fairway, encouraging players to hit driver for a good angle to the back right pin, however a bunker would be placed in the fairway in the exact spot you'd want to be on the left hand side to reach the back right pin. Based on the drawing, the bunker would be farther than the gorse on the left where there seems to be a natural swale. This could be a small bunker but one that would seem to have quite a gathering feature to it. So while most players would think they could easily avoid the small bunker it would in fact play 2 or 3 times larger than it's actualy size.

[Rich Goodale]

Good thread, Sean

Vis a vis the OB left, it is snap hook territory (strategically) and bandit country (agronomically).  If you did get a LWH drop it would be into the boondai, and you'd be lucky to get to the green in 3 further strokes.  Keep it as it is.  The fact that it riles you so much is just a bonus.

The fairway bunker is all about strategy.  Take the driver and come off it you have a more difficult (but hardly impossible) shot to the green.  If your strategy is more timorous, hit an iron short of the bunker and you have a blind 8-9 iron to the green.

I agree the green side bunkers are superfluous, but they are good eye candy (as Paul T. says) and they probably speed up play vs. a roughy hillock, which is a good thing on an opening hole.

I give the hole a 7.397 on the Modified Arble Scale.

[Sean_A]

Steve

Your idea is quite radical!  It sounds good, but one of the best aspects of this hole is the angled green to the fairway - this would be compromised.  

Rich

Your idea of strategy for this bunker is low on the scale of 1-10.  You should be a taxman because you want to tax directly (the bunker) and indirectly (poor angle).  I expect you learned this sort of thinking from that Scots cretin Brown.  ALSO, I didn't see any of the pros bang it out of that bunker onto the green.  Some may have done, but its a BIG ask for the handicap player.  

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Last time I was there I hit 9-iron to the green from that bunker, and I'm a player with many handicaps....

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bunkerman

1. Thanks for starting this; how bout a more descriptive thread title?
2. My first inclination was to agree removal of the fairway bunker, but mark pearces def of strat vs penal is right, and isn't carnoustie supposed to be penal?
3. Re point #2 above, should you be "improving" the holes according to your own beliefs or according to original intent? I don't like water OB left or the fairway bunker either, but they seem in keeping with the spirit of the place. Now, if you are saying there are better articulations of the penal school on that hole, that's another thing entirely...

Mark

[Ally Mcintosh]

2. My first inclination was to agree removal of the fairway bunker, but mark pearces def of strat vs penal is right, and isn't carnoustie supposed to be penal?

d'you know, the more i read on here, the more i get confused...

how can a course be "supposed to be penal?".... isn't a good golf course a mixture of many things... isn't variety the spice of life?....

[Sean_A]

Mark

I take your point that Carnoustie is meant to be penal, but that doesn't mean its great because of its penal nature or that it couldn't be better with a less penal design.  As it goes, I think it works well for the big boys, but not so well for most of the rest of us.  So many options are taken away because the balance of risk/reward is often poor.


Ciao

[George Pazin]

Looks like a great hole to me. The fairway bunker may be superfluous, but I'd argue it provides a little whimsical variety - you might be approaching from the fairway, the rough, or a difficult bunker.

I can live without it quite nicely, but I don't think it hurts anything.

How about moving the bunker to the left, right smack in the middle of the preferred angle driving area, then mowing all the rough out to the left?

Oooooooooooooh.

 

Sorry I'm late to the party, I generally only look in while I'm at work, and I was at the zoo this morning, checking out lions and polar bears. The lion was talking quite a bit this morning, but I think the otter is the most underrated animal at the zoo.

[Tony_Muldoon]

 

Sorry I'm late to the party, I generally only look in while I'm at work, and I was at the zoo this morning, checking out lions and polar bears. The lion was talking quite a bit this morning, but I think the otter is the most underrated animal at the zoo.

"Someone told me
It's all happening at the zoo.

I do believe it,
I do believe it's true.

It's a light and tumble journey
From the east side to the park;
Just a fine and fancy ramble
To the zoo.

But you can take the crosstown bus
If it's raining or it's cold,
And the animals will love it
If you do.

Somethin' tells me
It's all happening at the zoo.

The monkeys stand for honesty,
Giraffes are insincere,
And the elephants are kindly but
They're dumb.
Orangutans are skeptical
Of changes in their cages,
And the zookeeper is very fond of rum.

Zebras are reactionaries,
Antelopes are missionaries,
Pigeons plot in secrecy,
And hamsters turn on frequently.
What a gas! you gotta come and see
At the zoo."

Paul Simon

[Richard Pennell]

NEGATIVES: 1) The fairway bunker is unnecessary.  The player already has a poor angle if he is over there.  I would like to see the option of going to the left side of the green or the aggressive play over the top to the right side of the green.  Unfortunately, the bunker requires one to splash out.  The rough and poor angle is all it takes to send the message home - PENAL BUNKER.  

SUGGESTIONS: 1) Fill in fairway bunker and while we are at it, the two short of the mound near the green.  If a guy is there after two he is already in bad shape. Ciao

Hi Sean. Great idea on the hole-by-hole analysis. I guess what with the recent levels of rainfall you've not been able to play golf 7 days a week, eh?

I'm not sure about the fairway bunker. The thing you don't see as clearly on TV is how poor the view of the green is from the right hand edge of the fairway down there, in addition to the angled green. It is a pretty blind shot anyway. The ground directly short of the bunker runs quite steeply down to it, which could easily kick a reasonable teeshot into a tough spot in the bunker. Having said that, its not that long a shot to find the green or surround from there - somewhere between 109 and 121 yards to the front according to my strokesaver. I was raking bunkers for the pros last week and one of them - I think it was Kevin Stadler - had no problem flicking a wedge onto the green from there.

For the handicap golfer, perhaps it is harsher to kick on into that one than it is for a pro, who ought to be able to hit a long iron or rescue into a fairly generous opening fairway IMHO.

I haven't seen the stats on how it played, but I saw a lot of 3's on this hole. I think its a good hole and a fairly mild start to a course with Carnoustie's formidable reputation. Funny how we're focusing on the OB as well though. I bet no-one would have noticed if Tiger hadn't gone in there. Standing on the tee its hard to fathom what happened there, the burn is so far left. There can't be many more straightforward shots waiting for you at Carnoustie, its just horribel to start in that fashion. I only ever saw Jack Nicklaus compete once, the '86 Masters on TV, so I'm not qualified to say perhaps but I wouldn't have thought he would have ever put one in there!

[Sean_A]

Richard

I knew a sound mind and a steady hand would appear sooner or later.  Its settled then.  If a man inside the ropes thinks the bunker is a bit harsh for Joe Bloggs then I will reverse my decision again and kill the bunker.  

I haven't played a lot this summer.  I think I have gotten two games in at Droitwich since the summer began and only a few in the weeks leading up to summer. In fact, I finally got up the nerve to put my name down for two comps and both were cancelled.  I reckon its a sign telling me that I am a perpetual 9 capper.  No worries though, I am off to Huntercombe tomorrow and Wallasey on Sunday.  There are some other lovely treats in store for the remainder of what will be summer!


Ciao

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