[David Sneddon]

The 18th as played this past week, offers the player several choices - risk-reward with driver, or even hit 3 x 7irons and a wedge and hope for a one-putt, and almost anything in-between.  It forces the player to 'think' or in some cases to have a complete brain-f@^#.  Bit of a change from the standard PGATour weekly finisher: water all the way on the left/right and play to a green tucked left/right.

When the Open returns to Carnoustie, I'd like to see the spot on the card for Par, for #18 left blank - we'll figure 'par' out after the Championship.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Pay attention! I told you why your reasons were vacuous on your original thread.

Now you are calling my remark intended to be silly, and marked as such, vacuous. Sorry Jordan. It wasn't vacuous, it was silly and never intended to be anything more. To be vacuous, it has to be put forth seriously.

I'm still trying to figure out your beef with the hole though.

After all this debating I still haven't gotten anything as to why the hole is bad, except its relation par.

Thats not a valid point or reason.  Following that rational, Oakmont or Winged Foot would have bad finishing holes too.

You call the hole a fluke.
WHY?

I have continuously stated my reasons for believeing th hole is great, and I would love to hear why you disagree.

[Garland Bayley]

Jordan,

Pay attention! I told you why your reasons were vacuous on your original thread.

Now you are calling my remark intended to be silly, and marked as such, vacuous. Sorry Jordan. It wasn't vacuous, it was silly and never intended to be anything more. To be vacuous, it has to be put forth seriously.

I'm still trying to figure out your beef with the hole though.

After all this debating I still haven't gotten anything as to why the hole is bad, except its relation par.

Thats not a valid point or reason.  Following that rational, Oakmont or Winged Foot would have bad finishing holes too.

You call the hole a fluke.
WHY?

I have continuously stated my reasons for believeing th hole is great, and I would love to hear why you disagree.

I don't believe I have ever really said the hole was bad. I have argued that it is not the greatest finishing hole in championship golf, which would seem to be #18 at Pebble Beach since both Golf magazine and my edition of the World Atlas of Golf name it the greatest finishing hole in the world.

You have been on this site long enough to understand risk/reward. Here is your honors English essay assignment. Look at other holes that use a stream to provide risk/reward. Compare and contrast them with Carnoustie. I wait with great anticipation the conclusions you draw in your essay.

[Garland Bayley]

...
You call the hole a fluke.
WHY?
...

Read and reflect carefully Jordan. I wrote that if Harrington had won by crossing the burn on the bridge, his win would have been labeled a fluke.

[George Pazin]

Garland, you're still confusing fantasy with reality.

PB#18 might be the prettiest, but it doesn't seem anywhere close to the best to me.

Shiv's still pickin' on TOC on the other thread.

Seems like the ideal hole would provide both death and glory down the stretch - which Carnoustie's 18th has done in spades. Seems as good as any 18th, even Oakmont's!

[Jordan Wall]

Garland,

Ic Carnoustie's finisher better than Pebble's?
I couldnt answer that.  To do so I would have to see and play both.  From my point of view though, they are both great.

But, I can say that Carnoustie has a better finishing hole for major championships.  It has been proven with continuous thrilling finishes.

There is a big difference between a great finishing hole in general and a great finishing hole for major championships (though I still think that, in general, Carnoustie has a great finishing hole ).



Here, we'll take Chambers Bay 18, one we have both played.

I dont consider that to be a great hole.  A good hole, but not great.

Yet, I think it would be great for a major.

With ob right, waste area right, and big bunkers looming left there is a huge array of possible scores.

Coupled with the green and surrounds, it would be a great finishing hole for majors.  But, it is not even in the top five holes on the course.



Also, I am in no mood to do any kind of an essay.  I'm on summer vacation, thankyouverymuch!
 
p.s. Garland..you should come to Seattle so we can duke it out on the course!
 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you're still confusing fantasy with reality.

PB#18 might be the prettiest, but it doesn't seem anywhere close to the best to me.

Shiv's still pickin' on TOC on the other thread.

Seems like the ideal hole would provide both death and glory down the stretch - which Carnoustie's 18th has done in spades. Seems as good as any 18th, even Oakmont's!

George,

As you probably know, I have not played Pebble or Carnoustie. I am only reporting what has be written. How does that make it fantasy?  

[George Pazin]

My fault for very poor writing - my first sentence was not connected to what followed.

The confusing of reality and fantasy was referring to your statement that "If Harrington's shot makes it across the bridge, he wins in a fluke". His shot didn't, it went in the water. You're using the fantasy to support your argument, not the reality.

[Garland Bayley]

My fault for very poor writing - my first sentence was not connected to what followed.

The confusing of reality and fantasy was referring to your statement that "If Harrington's shot makes it across the bridge, he wins in a fluke". His shot didn't, it went in the water. You're using the fantasy to support your argument, not the reality.

I was using a hypothetical! My fantasy life is quite different.  

[Garland Bayley]

...
p.s. Garland..you should come to Seattle so we can duke it out on the course!
 

About the time I get done building that 48 inch driver with a club head that has a COR that exceeds the legal limit.  

[Jordan Wall]

...
p.s. Garland..you should come to Seattle so we can duke it out on the course!
 

About the time I get done building that 48 inch driver with a club head that has a COR that exceeds the legal limit.  

Note:  Just because you extend your driver to too long does NOT make my head, or me in general, a target for when we play!  
 

[Phil Benedict]

What's really fluky about the hole is the random outcome for drives hit to the right.  A little right and you are in the water but way right is ok.  Obviously Van de Velde is the most famous example of getting away with a big block but there were others who drove it onto that sliver of land to the right of the burne this year.  Not that the element of luck isn't part of golf.

[Doug Siebert]

Phil,

So how it is that different from any hole in the world where you miss it a bit and you are in rough and miss it by a lot and you are in another fairway with a fine shot at the green?

Most courses in the US have creeks that are lateral to the hole surrounded by trees so it is rare for players to be able to bounce over them or have a more attractive proposition if they do.  But just because I can't think of a good example of something like that in the US on a great course doesn't mean they don't exist, and I'm sure someone will help me out here

PS--Doug, I anonymously immortalized you and your 1.5 stroke average for the 16th in "Experience Carnoustie."  So, you've got that going for you.......

Rich:  Thanks for making me anonymously famous!  I'll try not to raise that average by too much next time I play, but the odds of me keeping that average below 2 look to be pretty long!  I may have to pick up a copy of that book to remember my only true claim to fame in the golfing world before I go back and blow it!

[George Pazin]

PS--Doug, I anonymously immortalized you and your 1.5 stroke average for the 16th in "Experience Carnoustie."  So, you've got that going for you.......

Rich:  Thanks for making me anonymously famous!  I'll try not to raise that average by too much next time I play, but the odds of me keeping that average below 2 look to be pretty long!  I may have to pick up a copy of that book to remember my only true claim to fame in the golfing world before I go back and blow it!

Every time they showed the 16th during The Open, I expected one of the announcers to relate this story - I guess they don't have Rich's book, or lurk here!

[Phil Benedict]

Doug,

As someone who has enjoyed the benefits of playing from parallel fairways all my life, I get your point.  However, just to use Oakmont as an example, I can't think of a single hole where a bad miss is better than a near miss, probably because the areas separating the holes are so large.  

I am sure there are other finishing holes in championship golf where you can get lucky with a bad miss, but it doesn't necessarily make it a good feature.

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