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TEPaul

Although, it apparently wasn't the first time it got tested in a non-member tournament (I think they held an AJGA tournament there), yesterday the PA Golf Association held a regional qualifier on Hanse Design's French Creek.

All that resulted pretty much inspired me to write up a full-blown analysis of a whole lot of things---the golf course, its routing, its architecture, the way various types of players approach it, play it, critique it and even how officials and tournament administrators have to deal with it.

I'll preface by admitting that Gil Hanse is a good friend of mine and the architect I've probably been closest to over the years. We've even done a few little things together here and there.

First of all, nobody, not anyone, has ever said the routing of French Creek is very good. Everyone knows it's chopped up by a country road in some pretty unfortunate ways that created some "green to next tee" disconnects and probably required that a few holes got wedged into places that weren't ideal (particularly #8). In a few other places wetlands and radical topography required some pretty interesting applications in balance and sequence.

Despite all this the individual holes of French Creek are really cool to me regardless of how they lay out in relation to one another on the site.

Next, the architectural features on the course----eg the actual hole movements and layouts, use of topography for architecture, use of fairway and green angles and such, internal green designs, contours and shapes, some tee designs and particularly the bunkering is really special to me, even breathtaking in spots (just about all the bunkering of French Creek is about as good of a particular style as there is in the world with new course design, in my opinion. Basically I just can’t imagine how bunkering of this particular style could ever be any better and better looking than this, although old fashioned rugged looking bunkering certainly is and always has been a Hanse Design specialty). French Creek also uses a lot of fairway width with a purpose as many of the holes that have some real fairway width also have a whole lot of other danger areas and different features in, on or around them. There’re also some pretty healthy forced carries on the course that put demand on tournament setup people to be realistic.

One thing French Creek is in spades is a “thinking” player’s course. There’s no question at all even really good players have got to take the time and use their concentration to ultra engage with the course from tee to green and around and on the greens or they can semi-hang themselves all over that course, not to mention plenty of water hazards, O.B’s and really high thick fescue and a few other areas that give “Wild Country” (left of #14) new meaning.

I should also say that a Pa State Am qualifier like this one with a field of around 80 players (22 spots and ties ) had probably 30 players in it that are very good and maybe about 15 of them who have careers where they have really gone low in tournaments such as US Am qualifiers on hard courses. By really low I mean in the low 60s.

On some subsequent posts I’d be glad to go through every single hole on the course and critique it, particularly in the context of something like what was held there yesterday (yesterday I did not get over to holes 4-8 but I know them well).

For now, I’ll critique 3-4 holes that have always seemed most salient or controversial in most players’ minds, including my own.

#3, where I spent most of the morning. This hole can play around 215 although we had it at 195. In my opinion, what it is, what the green is, the hole should not be more than about 150-160. The carry is too total, there’s way too much danger around it, particularly to the right and the green is too shallow, particularly on the right, and the surface is too radical for the length the hole is. There is no question at all that this hole sort of had to be where it is and what it is in a routing and sequence sense. To start the course where Gil did there was really no alternative than to do this par 3 exactly where it is and what it is. It just doesn’t need to be as long as it is, in my opinion. I feel a little responsible for the pin position yesterday because if I’d gotten there an hour earlier I would have almost insisted the position be shifted about three steps left on the left section.

#4: In my opinion, this hole needs to lose its back tee permanently. It’s too far back to be used in a general sense even for good players and after that it’s really hard for even good players to figure out where to lay up or how to go for that green. I don’t know what the total hole distance is from back there but I think the hole would be a lot better, particularly for good players, if played from the members tees of 483. That way it might become one of the more interesting “go/no go” high risk/reward short par 5s around. That way the “scoring spectrum” on it might be amazingly good.

#14: There’s no question at all that this hole gets the most criticism of any on the course and probably by a mile or two. I spent the afternoon on this one and I’ve never had an officiating/spotting workout like that in my 20 plus years of officiating. #14 is another good example of a routing and sequencing problem across some highly radical and difficult ground for golf and generally I think Hanse Design did a good job of it----they certainly did a gutsy job of it! The point is they just had to “get from here to there” somehow. In my opinion, the real problem with this hole is they just did “one thing too much or one thing too many” (like overacting that always seems to be a danger in golf architecture) on it and that very definitely is that fescue/rock strewn area right in the middle of the long shot/high risk tee shot area. Gil and French Creek, I swear to God if you just lost that fescue/rock strewn area in there and got it into fairway (even if that took a modicum of regrading) you’d really have something quirky but special with #14. I’d also recommend losing the trees that are between the fairway and cart path short and on the right (leave the one at the end to aim at) and build a two-foot high rock wall to take the place of the O.B. stakes on the right. All of this would make that highly dangerous (and blind now) green much more acceptable.

So how did it go in qualifying?

One of the best players in the field, a guy who could win the State Amateur must have gone ballistic in anger and failed to qualify. Some guy nobody ever heard of shot a 65 and there were a couple of others in the 60s or under the par 71. 22 and ties qualified at 75 or better.

To me that means the course produced a most interesting “scoring spectrum” and in the final analysis that’s a very good thing, perhaps even the most important barometer of a good golf course and good and thoughtful and interesting architecture.

Gil, I told (in jest) Mark Petersen (Pa’s Executive Director) that you are now the architect who is “Enemy #1” in the world of officials and golf administrators. MY GOD, what a workout it was to officiate at French Creek yesterday. We suspected that going in but now we know!  ;)

And lastly, having spent the afternoon on #14 I don’t think there was more than a few players who DID NOT have something critical to say about that hole with the exception of a member who was playing and then this young kid who looked like an advertisement out of Lilly Pulitizer who I saw over on #3 who almost made a hole in one by banking his shot off the end of the middle radical ridgeline in the green and backing it down to rim the cup. I asked that kid on #14 what he thought of the course and he essentially gasped; “Ive never seen a golf course remotely like this one in my life and I’ve never had more fun on any golf course in my entire life”.

Clearly, that says a whole lot about all of what French Creek is!!

Lastly, a whole lot of the players were trying to drive #15 and that created a huge backlog on that hole as we had to radio back and forth to get players on the green to wait to let following groups drive. One guy hit the ball way over the green and down into the 11th fairway from where he pitched back rather nicely. I told Petersen that was actually your  17th option on one of the most multi-optional holes around. It’s a very cool hole and it also created a real “scoring spectrum.  ;)







John Kavanaugh

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 09:03:55 AM »
I was hoping this thread was about the upcoming 2008 Pub Links.  Is it possible for scores to reflect poorly on a course?  If so...what could they have been?

Are the problems with French Creek architectural or perceptional.  Does Gil intentionally push the engineering envelope at the expense of convention...and should more architects do the same?

JESII

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Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2007, 09:06:24 AM »
TEP,


I haven't been to French Creek, but I think Gil did Applebrook as well...am I correct? Which is quirkier?

By the way, I really like Applebrook...

John Foley

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Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2007, 09:10:34 AM »
Tom,

How did they play the short par 3 on the front (#5 I think??)

I liked that hole alot especially given the area long of the green gave the players a number of options to recover from.
Integrity in the moment of choice

TEPaul

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2007, 10:57:46 AM »
"Are the problems with French Creek architectural or perceptional.  Does Gil intentionally push the engineering envelope at the expense of convention...and should more architects do the same?"

John Kavanaugh:

Good questions, very good questions.

I think any problems with French Creek are far more perception than architecture. But obviously somewhere along the line the two do have to meet, don't they?  ;)

And, yes, I think Gil does push the envelope although I wouldn't necessarily call it engineering. And I think he does push the envelope at the expense of convention, particularly American convention, and thank God he does, in my opinion.

I think more architects should do that too, in their own unique ways.
 
 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 10:58:20 AM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

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Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2007, 11:01:15 AM »
Thanks for the report Tom. I find the following interesting.

"To me that means the course produced a most interesting “scoring spectrum” and in the final analysis that’s a very good thing,"

and, for example,

"In my opinion, what it is, what the green is, the hole should not be more than about 150-160. The carry is too total, there’s way too much danger around it, particularly to the right and the green is too shallow, particularly on the right, and the surface is too radical for the length the hole is."

It seems you are praising a result that comes from what you criticize.


« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 11:01:55 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2007, 11:41:07 AM »
"It seems you are praising a result that comes from what you criticize."

Garland:

Not really. I think it's a good hole. I just think it's too long, even for good players, for what it is. The length of it is all I'm criticizing. One of the best players in the field yesterday who just happened to hit it close to a pretty tough pin said the same thing.

One of the neat things about yesterday is for one reason or another I was able to have a whole lot of discussions with a whole lot of players, particularly some of the very good ones about the architecture of particular holes. I think these guys are really getting into architecture and paying close attention to a lot of the nuances of it.

That, of course is a very good thing too.

However, there is one thing that's certain about all these players----they really don't like an overload of blindness, particularly on courses they're not that familiar with. That's probably the primary reason that French Creek's #14 gets such hard knocks.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 11:45:41 AM »
Tom,

But won't the larger variation of scores on the holes you criticize lead to the "scoring spectrum" that you praise?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Mandel

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Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 12:01:30 PM »
Sully,

French Creek is quirkier by a looooong shot. French Creek is on a much better piece of land, but I happen to like Applebrook as a course better...

I probably need another shot at French Creek though, as the day I played it I hit the ball god awful, and had trouble carrying some of the long carries.

Have you played Inniscrone?

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 12:24:09 PM »
TE,

Sounds like a tough medal play course but a very good match play course, where round-wreckers are only one hole-wreckers.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 12:32:26 PM »
Jason,

I have not played Inniscrone, but have heard much of the same "quirk is bad" complaints from there. I tend to like it (quirk), but not for it's own sake...

For example - The little pot bunker in the second shot lay up landing area on #16 at Applebrook is almost unanimously (among other tournament players in the Philadelphia area) disliked, but I think it's genius.

Peter Pallotta

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 12:56:05 PM »
For example - The little pot bunker in the second shot lay up landing area on #16 at Applebrook is almost unanimously (among other tournament players in the Philadelphia area) disliked, but I think it's genius.

JES
I'm curious: why the difference?

Is it more 'general', i.e. does your appreciation of gca distinguish you from most tournament players? Or is it more 'specific', i.e. are you in "tournament player" mode but find that pot bunker an important part of a great/strategic test while other players just don't?

Peter
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 01:02:20 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 01:13:19 PM »
Peter,

I don't know, but picture this...a 560 or so par 5 so it's naturally not real easily reachable for most at our level. Then you have a creek that crosses the driving area at about 280 or 290 so it takes driver out of my hands unless it's real strong down wind. Now, after laying up, it's definitely a three-shot hole and the fairway is about 75 yards wide up there but this little freakin' bunker is about 1/3rd in from the right cut of rough...keep in mind the green is tucked around to the right...so you have about 20 yards to try to fit your layup or choose to hit it over it to get a wedge in your hands or lay up short of it and be left with an 8 iron or so. Maybe it's not as much of a factor for most, but my ball seems magnetically pulled towards this bunker...

I don't know it for fact, but it seems like there were some real environmental issues down in this area of the course.He delt with tham very well to create an interesting and challenging hole...and I think this little 8 foot circle pot bunker gets much of the credit for that.

Big B

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 01:23:07 PM »
I played in the tournament yesterday and had the pleasure of meeting Tom on the 11th green.  Unfortunately I didn't play well, but on the holes where Tom was around (#3, #11 & #14), I was even par!  I also had the pleasure of playing with Patrick Serfass who shot 65 and won by 4 shots.  He is a very nice kid and as an upcoming senior this year plays #1 on the Susquehanna University golf team.  He was so excited on the 18th green to shot 65, his best round ever, we were giving him high-fives!  It was great to see up close as he made putts from all over the place (he also only missed one fairway).

The course was in excellent condition and the weather was brutal (heat and humidity). It's a tough course to walk bc of the hills and the routing.  I only think the routing is a little off btwn #3 & #4.  The greens were punched last week with very small holes that did not impact putting.  There are some great holes, #17 is a fantastic par 3 @ 200+ yds.  There is a front bunker, that doesn't come in to play but is visually intimidating that looks like an ocean wave from Hawaii.  All you can see is the huge false front on the right, bail out is on the left which is blind from the tee and there is a reasonable size green to accommodate the distance and uphill shot.  

Concerning the backup for #15, to my knowledge nobody made a 2 (par 4 @ 292 yds).

Peter Pallotta

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2007, 01:56:25 PM »
Brian - thanks, good and interesting post.

JES - thanks, you paint a real good picture. Sounds like a wonderful and 'flexible' hole: for the average amateur, a three shotter with lots of room, but challenges as well; for the good amateur, a decision if he's playing with the wind, a different decision if there is no wind, and then more decisions - with either a 'real' hazard in that little pot bunker or at least a 'psychological' one, or both, depending on the golfer's thinking and execution up to that point.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 01:58:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 08:02:03 AM »
Brian:

Nice to meet you out there and thanks for introducing yourself. I did not know Patrick Serfass was in your group. Was he the one with the white and black shirt who teed off first on #11 and #12?

That was the best round of his life? That's a helluva time and place to do that, that's for damn sure!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 08:03:16 AM by TEPaul »

redanman

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 08:15:37 AM »
I am not sure any architect living or dead and cold could have done substantially better at French Creek that what is there.  An incredibly difficult property, I know they had their hands full there.  I'll try to add specific comments later at work, but Gil et.al. are NOT afraid to take chances*.  

Occasionally you get a semi-dud like French Creek #3 or 4 (But tough spot!!) or an almost dud like #8 (just dull, really) but where else do you find teams taking the chances taken that yield stretches like 12-15?

Yeah, yeah, call me a Hanse butt-boy. (One of the few I qualify as "butt-boy" in the proudest sense.

*Boston Golf club is a monumental achievement.  I am not saying any more than that in print.

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2007, 08:28:05 AM »
I have not played French Creek yet, but now look forward to the day I do. I have, however, played Applebrook and one of the things that really impressed me about that course was the feel that it was as mature as it needed to be in it's first couple of years. 16, 17 and 18 are a great finish. And like so many, a very different course when the wind is up.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Big B

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2007, 08:34:38 AM »
Tom...

Yes, Patrick was the one in the black and white shirt.  I think you saw his second shot to the par 5 when he bounced it over the stone wall and he ended up making birdie.

Within the stretch of holes btwn 11-15, I think #13 is one of the best in the area.  Also, Gil did a great job with the fairway bunkers throughout the course.  They're well placed (like #18 for example) and very deep (like #3 on the right).  I saw golfers in those bunkers all day.

TEPaul

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2007, 08:53:50 AM »
Brian:

Let me tell you something about the 17th hole at French Creek. To say the least it should be considered to have a wonderful and unusual pedigree as apparently that was the hole Hanse Design put Bill Kittleman on for the length of the project (although the extent of that could be slightly apocryphal).

Bill Kittleman, if you don't know about him, was the long time pro of Merion, a Yale graduate and undeniable eccentric genius with various aspects of architecture.

Where he comes up with his architectural concepts noone really knows. Some think he may have a permanent channel into GB linksland of the 18th century.

He also invents words and terms to explain various things such as the rugged grassing around bunkers and such which has become known as "gruncle".

The Hanse crew do not exactly explain the things Bill does in time----they explain it, be it a bunker or a hole, in terms of boxes of cigars that Bill goes through doing something.

#17 may've been something like a 50 or even a 100 cigar box hole.

When I first went to French Creek under construction I went out to #16 green with one of Gil's best guys, Rodney Hines who is now the superintendent at Boston Club. Rodney was overseeing a crew beginning to float #16 green.

We then stepped over to #17 tee and looked at Bill's work to date. I asked what the hell the hole was all about and Rodney said neither he nor the crew had any idea----it was just Bill and that there were all kinds of things going on with it.

That enormous crossing diagonal bunker which might be 80 yards from the green is brilliant looking and pretty deceptive.

Did you notice the tee you played from was about 45 degrees off center angle? That's just Bill.

Did you notice that long running ridgeline along the entire right side of the hole that really doesn't come into play?

Bill designed all that----for what particular reason I don't think anyone is completely sure.

Too bad you may not have noticed all that curious and multishaped bunkering and indentations in that ridgeline. All that's BillK. There is even a very large grass indentation in that ridgeline you could fit a car or two into. That's why they call that thing the "garage" or the "basement".

I see Bill and his wife at parties now and then and his wife told me at some point she realized all her best antique silver teaspoons were gone. Apparently Bill appropriated them to do some of the real detail work on his bunkering and such. Silver teaspoons and cigars----perhaps the real key working elements in great looking golf course architecture.  ;)

Bill apparently may also be the only golf architect who actually completely understands the weighs and forces of Nature's own formulae for how wind and water and such work on earth and sand to create the shapes and sizes it does. Tommy Nacarrato informed me the other day this is called something like the Fibbachi Formula or Phenomenon.

Also the very large fairway running up to #17 is most interesting as it's in a diagonal line and essentially has two levels---the left taking balls onto the green and the right which will shed them right and onto or below that right side false front.

I bet you're probably glad you didn't know all this stuff BEFORE you played that hole, huh Brian?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 08:59:21 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2007, 09:12:15 AM »
I should also mention that the overall bunkering of French Creek either from a vast distance or even up close is some of the best looking I've ever seen in my life and is of a method called "chunking" or some kind of variation method of stacked coarses like on #10. Oh, and of course a few examples of the antique silver teaspoon method. By the way, if any of you guys have any old rugs or carpets you're thinking of trashing, show them to Bill before you do----he may have an architectural use for them somethere such as under some old looking overhanging bunker lip or something.

I think I posted this not long ago on a thread following the recent death of famous Merion super Richie Valentine. For years Bill Kittleman, Merion's head pro, was not averse to going out on Merion after work and fiddling with fixing the course here and there. He worked with Richie Valentine that way.

Richie and therefore Bill are from the old fashioned OJT school of golf course maintenance whereby you use any method near at hand and cost effective to get something accomplished.

For instance, apparently Richie lost a considerable amount of his grass on some of his greens going right into one of Merion's US Opens, so he just told his crew to go get a lot of grass clippings and scatter it around the turf loss areas and keep it wet enough so it would stick to the ground to get them through the tournament.

Don't you just love creative stuff like that?  ;)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 09:24:20 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

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Re:A tournament test of a course of one of our favorite architects
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2007, 04:39:00 PM »
Some interesting tidbits on French Creek (I'm a member and I absolutely love the place).

Playing French Creek is like a journey.  No two holes are alike and every shot demands concentration.  The angles you find are wonderful and truly test the mental and physical game.  As Tom mentions, the bunkering is beautiful to look at and perplexing to play.   I'm still discovering bunkers hidden here and there after playing the course for four years.

A lapse of concentration can turn a birdie into a double very quickly.  

It's a great members' course because it always provides you with a fresh experience.  There are so many subtle speed slots, humps, and quirks that boredom never occurs.  You can't put it on auto-pilot here!

Fortunately, we've been able to grow in the fescue this year.  This has led to some beautiful views and has increased the difficulty.  Further autumnal burning will lead to less native grass in the fescue areas and better playing conditions.  I'm thrilled with the progress here.

Here are my takes on some of the holes:

Hole 1 - With no disrespect to Pine Valley, I've heard that this green reminds folks of PV #1.  This was a tough hole to construct because it runs along a ridge way up above 2 and 9.

Hole 2 is one of the best par 4s I've ever played - It has some gunkle over on the right side just past the fairway bunkers.  But the tee shot from the tips is provides one of the best looking drives I've seen anywhere.  The green is full of fascinating contours.  It's just a darn fun hole.

Hole 3- Gil's original design notes state that the hole was supposed to play downhill.  I've advocated adding 5-10 feet to the back tee to give a more fair shot.  This hole has an incredibly difficult 2-tier green.  The wetlands surrounding French Creek certainly made this a tough hole to build.  I'm usually satisfied with a 4 on this hole.  

Hole 4 - This hole was originally supposed to go well to the left of its current routing.  This would have provided a nice drop shot to the green with French Creek directly behind the green.  Unfortunately, a home builder built a pair of big retention basins up there and the routing moved left.     Gil would also like to soften the slope of the area between the 50 yard fairway bunker and the green because a shot hitting there in firm/fast conditions could bound into the creek.  

The tees are where they are because they were the only spot the Penn. DEP allowed them to be built   :-\

Hole 5 - a mini quarry hole.  Mr. Kittleman's homage to Merion East 16.   Sure it's only 105 yards, but it's a helluva short 3.

Hole 6 - The big fairway bunker was originally set to span the entire fairway a'la Hell's Half Acre.  When asked about it, Gil chuckled and said, "Yep - we decided to soften it".  

Hole 8 - The par 3 with the big drop shot.  This hole defends itself with a green that is full of optical illusions.  Putts can seem to break uphill.

Hole 9 - I love the green complex here as well as the risk/reward off the tee.  A punchbowl type green sits 5-10 feet higher than the fairway.  The mounding actually reminded me of Bandon Dunes the first time I saw it.

Hole 10 - Tom mentions the bunkering, and it really is something here.  You're well below the green surface and that surface runs away from you.  We used to have WAY too much sand in these bunkers, but it's playing great now.

Hole 12 - Gil envisioned this hole while working Stonewall with Tom Doak.  He's said he used to watch the runoff after heavy rains into the field.  Well, it's a tough par 4 now, and it's directly across the street from Stonewall #3.

Hole 14 - Gil would actually like the fescue below the boulder to become a rough-length area.  It's a pretty rocky area, so it'd take some hard work to clear all the rocks.  I like the 3 boulders up at the crest of the hill, actually.  Gil would also like to remove a bunch of the trees to the left of the fairway and provide a peek at the flag from the blue tee.  He'd also like to soften the green countours or even expand the green to the right.    By the way, #1 green is directly ahead of you on #14 tee - it's 3/4 mile away!  

We've also taken out a number of trees around the green.  This has given the green an illusion of "floating" above the surrounding area.  It's a pretty cool look.

Hole 15 - You want bunkers?  You've got them here.  In spades.  The coffin bunker to the left of the green is really difficult  - it's only 5 yards wide, but it catches a lot of shots.  Tom brought up the tee shot into 11 fairway - you can do this, but you're hitting to a green in the sky that runs away from you.  And what a green - when I was helping with an AGJA event, the kids were perplexed here.  Some putts ended up off the green down the hill to the left.

Hole 16-  one of the most beautiful fairway bunkers I've ever seen.  It sits on the inside corner of the dogleg tee shot.  A drive that carries the bunker is rewarded with a wonderful speed slot that sets up the opportunity to reach the par 5 in two.  Find the bunker, and you're presented with a shot without a view of the fairway because you're probably so far down.   The green has a wonderful swale that can produce some fascinating hole locations.

Hole 17 - did  you notice the trees in the distance behind the green?  They're almost 220 yards behind the green, but they serve to mess with your depth perception.  It's a very cool green too - it slopes front-to-back.    Originally, 17 was supposed to play up to where 18 tee is, but it was rerouted to what I think provides a better test of golf.

Tom - thanks for  your post!

« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 05:34:58 PM by Dan Herrmann »

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