[Eric Smith]

Do golf course architects, or a % of them, ever desire to be more than the architect of a particular project? That is, to be an owner/operator/principal of the project as well?

My question stems from my personal golf experiences and what really matters to the core of me about golf. My goal is to develop a special golf club, with a lodging component, open to the public, no memberships, no fairway homes and to personally operate this club. Hopefully until I'm an old man with the wish that my girls will want to be involved someday as well.

I've played since I was 9, worked 13 years in golf course operations at several clubs, from cart attendant to assistant pro to GM. I've been out of the clubhouse now for 3 years or so, I have a successful real estate development business, yet I still want to develop the farm into the club that I've envisioned for so many years.

One of my hobbies has always been sketching holes and visualizing mom and dad's place as a golf course.

There's something special about walking out in the fields and seeing things (holes) that aren't there yet, knowing that one day they'll be there for all to enjoy. I can't imagine wanting to do anything else or to develop anything else in golf.

That's where I see that maybe I am from a different side of the golf ball than the architects?  I wouldn't enjoy developing golf courses for others, I'm sure of this.  Just one club with maybe 36 holes in the end is my idea of nirvana.

I don't mean to ramble, but to the crux of my question: Are operations people in the architecture side and vise versa?  Will a guy like Mike Nuzzo or, Mike Young or Tom Doak ever design and own their own club, or maybe they do already?
Just curious.

I am thankful that these guys and the like are willing to share so much of the inside of the business of putting golf courses in the ground on this site. I've learned a great deal from all of the contributors on this site.

Thanks.
Eric

 

[Tom_Doak]

Eric:

There are many architects who have become involved in owning part of a golf course they've designed.  And a very high percentage of those deals have ended badly.  Makes sense if you think about it -- if your client wants to cut you in on the deal, he must not be too sure it's going to work out great, whereas someone like Mike Keiser does not make an offer like that.

Years ago I would have said I'd love to own and operate my own course, but at present I live in an area where I would almost certainly lose money trying to do so.  

When you are trying to run a design business, it's a very tough call to put that much time and effort into starting another business, which is really what you're talking about if you are going to develop a course yourself.  Perhaps after I get some of my associates on to designing courses on their own, I'll go back and try to build one by myself as the owner/operator ... it would be great to have a course close to home I could play everyday, and visit with all of the people who come and see it, much like Pat Ruddy has at The European Club.

[David_Tepper]

Eric -

Mark Parsinen has probably been one of the more successful golf course designer/developer/owner/operators. You can read about (and see a video about) his lastest venture at:

www.castlestuartgolf.com

A fellow in Northern California is in the process of doing something similar east of Stockton:

www.trinitasgolf.com

Good luck.

DT

[Eric Smith]

Tom,

Thanks for the insight.  Here's to seeing you build your home club someday and running into you behind the snack bar on a busy Saturday morning making bacon and egg sandwiches!

David,

Thanks for the links.


My ideas for the club are pretty firmly rooted in a certain type of look and feel, almost afraid to say links-like here, but screw it, that's the idea in mind.   The property best lends itself to the strategies of an open links like design.

Where I live, there are no courses anywhere close to say Heathland in Myrtle, with similar strategic values, an open playing field, unique bunkering, etc...not within 100 miles.

I live in a pretty strong golf market for such a small number of residents, tourism and retirement are big biz here.  There's a Golf Digest best new winner and a Nicklaus signature, both within 15 minutes of me. They're both fine courses, do a lot of golf package play but a very different type of golf course than what I envision.

I mention Heathland because back in '92 I went on a golf trip, played Heathland and loved it - the course changed me and opened my eyes to what I'd been missing. The next spring I left U.T., moved over to Hilton Head to avoid getting a 'real job' and began my golf journey working at Palmetto Dunes and playing about 30 different courses in the low country while there.  

By the way, I Won't be attempting to do this without an architect. My hope is ___________(fill in the blank) will be willing to allow for an honest collaboration with me.

I have a plan...but we're not ready yet.  I'll keep learning and listening and visiting the type courses, the great ones that continue to inspire me.  Next stop, 30 days from now, KINGSLEY!

[Ken Moum]

Craig Schreiner designed this one http://www.prairiehighlands.com, and I believe he's an owner as well.

Until recently his offices were at the course. http://www.csgolf.com/

Ken

[J_McKenzie]

Our company tried it and the biggest mistake we made was in underestimating the distraction it would be on our core business- design.  As Tom D. mentioned, its basically starting a brand new business and the time and staff requirements are huge.

[Mike Nuzzo]

A financial planner would strongly encourage one to diversify - investing ones career and resourses into the same golf market is quite risky.

I'd guess the failures that Tom's mentions are more of the design for equity type arrangements.  I'd also guess that once the course is complete the other owners look at the architect and wonder "what have you done for me lately" especially with a marginal business.

As for myself, thank you for the reference, I'd definately consider design for equity at this stage to get more opportunities.  I'd also love to have my own course that I designed as a majority owner - if not 100%.  Right now that is more of a dream -- not a goal.  

I have lots of dreams, and hopefully lots of time to decide which ones to make goals.

Cheers

[RJ_Daley]

I guess that is the really beautiful thing about being a legitimate (and actively working) golf course architect.  You get all the fun without risking your savings.  Sort of like "why buy the cow when the milk is free" sort of mentality.  

If you are a guy like Tom Doak or the rest of you GCAs, you get to walk into your growing list of world beater courses, play like you own the joint, everyone fauns over you as the man that designed it, then leave and play somewhere else, including all your GCA pals latest and best designs!  How does it get any better than that?  

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:

The downside of our great bargain is that anytime we visit one of our own courses, the owners and superintendents have 100 questions for us about how it's looking and playing.  It can often feel like work, especially for the first couple of years after opening.  On balance, though, I'll take it.  

[Clyde Johnston]

Eric:

I always dreamed of owning my own golf course (that I designed myself) also but having grown up in the golf business (dad was a pro) I knew the time committments would either ruin that business or my design business.

I've also been asked many times to take a position of ownership but only done so twice. One has worked out very well and the other has had a few problems.

I think Dan Maples in Pinehurst has done OK with his courses. His family goes way back in the history of Pinehurst.

Keep the dream. Just be smart with your money.

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