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Sean_A

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Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 02:44:07 PM »
Ben warned me he was going to start up this thread, and I have to admit that I'd been thinking of doing something similar in the wake of the Open Rota thread, as there are lots of reason for or against certain venues but I thought discussing the architectural possibilities of these courses would be more fun! I just didn't have the time to get something started so cheers Ben. I love what you are trying to do with this thread!

Ben, You've clearly got talent. Could you apply your talents to giving us another course in the south of England (south of Chester and the Wash) capable of hosting the Open. Burnham and Berrow, Saunton, Hunstanton (OK, that's east of the Wash!), Hayling, Royal Guernsey....leave no sod unturned! And don't forget the Welsh!

Mark,

Though he probably hasn't had a chance to mention it much on this site, Ben is Welsh through and through so I fully expect Royal Porthcawl to be his next effort!

Cheers,

James



Yes, I would like to see a Porthcawl Open Course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 02:56:13 PM »
this may be off the topic of this particular thread, but i wonder how the pros would do on the current prestwick.  they'd have no problem with the length, but would the alps and himalays keep them in check.  and, of course, there's the elements.  when i played there, it was about 50 degrees fahrenheit with horizontal rain.  i don't know who is playing well in that weather.

Retief Goosen shot 63 the day after Hoylake.  Unless conditions were horrendous, they'd kill it.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 03:10:02 PM »
Dear All

Here is Adrian Stiff's version of the Prestwick 2020 Open layout



Adrian - the new holes can be swapped over depending on the lie of the land

Cheers

Ben

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 03:17:20 PM »
Thanks Ben.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 03:47:42 PM »
Some friends and I at MPCC entertained eight members of Prestwick for two days a week or so ago, who were on their Western jaunt.

The question of antiquity arose and to a man they agreed that the course and environs could never hold an Open, and opined nor would they want it to.

Bob

Rich Goodale

Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 04:29:06 PM »
I think the answer is to tweak Adrian's outward routing and then build a hole across the Gwawys(?) Burn at the north of the picture to the 9th green at Troon.  From there, do the back 9 at Troon.  Get's rid of those boring early holes at Troon and also creates the world's first Point-to-Point Open Championship course!  If you really want to be bold, reverse the routing on day 2, reverse it again on 3 and then asgain on 4.

Case closed.

Ben Stephens

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Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - REVISED course layout based on GCA comments
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2009, 02:48:48 AM »
Dear GCA,

Here is an another course layout revised from the 1st layout I drew based on expert comments on GCA. I have tweaked it so that Cardinal and Cardinal's back are kept. The 2nd hole is eliminated and the green is kept for a new 8th hole. Cardinal tee shot line is moved toward the left to take the hole line further away from the Cardinal's back green and existing 17th (now 11th) tee.

Based on what Adrian said about 14 and 15 being the weakest link - I have eliminated those and the new 10th hole is very similar to the one played by Young Tom Morris and the new 18th green is very near the site of the original final green - a bit of resoration going back to the original layout.

Enjoy this one as I believe this could be the best of the lot and pays respect to most of the original features of what i have heard is a fantastic golf course as well as taking the course into the 21st century standards well worthy of having an Open (which is unlikely)

« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:50:29 AM by Ben Stephens »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2009, 04:49:40 AM »
OK, I like the improvements (especially keeping the Cardinal intact)

But I'd do as you previously suggested and start with the 5th hole as the 1st so it starts nearer the tented village and gets them off to a sterner start with a long hole into the wind rather than a mid iron/wedge from the current first.  Then the current 1st hole becomes the 15th played, at a really good time to make a few guys think about pulling driver on Sunday.

My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - REVISED course layout based on GCA comments
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2009, 08:09:16 AM »
Dear GCA,

Here is an another course layout revised from the 1st layout I drew based on expert comments on GCA. I have tweaked it so that Cardinal and Cardinal's back are kept. The 2nd hole is eliminated and the green is kept for a new 8th hole. Cardinal tee shot line is moved toward the left to take the hole line further away from the Cardinal's back green and existing 17th (now 11th) tee.

Based on what Adrian said about 14 and 15 being the weakest link - I have eliminated those and the new 10th hole is very similar to the one played by Young Tom Morris and the new 18th green is very near the site of the original final green - a bit of resoration going back to the original layout.

Enjoy this one as I believe this could be the best of the lot and pays respect to most of the original features of what i have heard is a fantastic golf course as well as taking the course into the 21st century standards well worthy of having an Open (which is unlikely)



Hey Ben

I really like all the alternate tees!  You could also make 14's left tee a double up and play to the 8th.  One thing I don't like is the lost shared fairway for #s 13 and 16.  I know its a bit of a crunch in this area, but your layout eliminates the best angle of approach.

Doug - are you saying start the round on the other side of the course from the clubhouse?  If so, I wouldn't be keen on the idea. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »
Thanks Ben!

A very fun thread to read and think through.

I fear that, unless we figure out the ball issue, we really are going to have to find this kind of length for any "Tour" course. I suppose you could find another 200 or 300 yards on the orginal course, tun both 5s into par 4s, and maybe Cardinals Back into a par 3 for a 68. That and great open conditions (maybe something like the first day last year) would do a nice job of protecting par...

"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2009, 05:10:59 PM »
Sean,

It isn't as though changing the order of holes for a major is unprecedented, you wouldn't have to play it like that on a daily basis.  This is all blue sky stuff that will never happen, so we might as well make the best 2020 Prestwick Open course we can without worrying about unimportant stuff like the location of the clubhouse.

Heck, maybe it produces enough revenue for the club that they can build a new clubhouse or have the existing one moved ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - REVISED course layout based on GCA comments
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2009, 04:19:32 AM »
Dear GCA,

Here is an another course layout revised from the 1st layout I drew based on expert comments on GCA. I have tweaked it so that Cardinal and Cardinal's back are kept. The 2nd hole is eliminated and the green is kept for a new 8th hole. Cardinal tee shot line is moved toward the left to take the hole line further away from the Cardinal's back green and existing 17th (now 11th) tee.

Based on what Adrian said about 14 and 15 being the weakest link - I have eliminated those and the new 10th hole is very similar to the one played by Young Tom Morris and the new 18th green is very near the site of the original final green - a bit of resoration going back to the original layout.

Enjoy this one as I believe this could be the best of the lot and pays respect to most of the original features of what i have heard is a fantastic golf course as well as taking the course into the 21st century standards well worthy of having an Open (which is unlikely)



Hey Ben

I really like all the alternate tees!  You could also make 14's left tee a double up and play to the 8th.  One thing I don't like is the lost shared fairway for #s 13 and 16.  I know its a bit of a crunch in this area, but your layout eliminates the best angle of approach.

Doug - are you saying start the round on the other side of the course from the clubhouse?  If so, I wouldn't be keen on the idea. 

Ciao

Sean,

I have split the joined fairway between the current 13th and 16th (17th and 10th on proposed layout) this would be only in Open conditions to allow for spectator routes - Sea Hadraig fairway could be moved closer to the coastline and the fairway would remain for Cardinal's back which would be the most sensible compromise between golf course and spectator routes.

Cheers for the game at BD last Fri. James' putting improved yday and won us the match in the 1st round of the Marley Golf Classic knockout!!!

Cheers

Ben


Iain Tulloch

Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 05:21:56 AM »
I was one of the eight Prestwick members, referred to by Bob, who were so royally entertained at MPCC and other clubs earlier this year.  Bob is correct – Prestwick is a club of tradition, and changes to the course of any import would not be tolerated.  I recall that, when a bunker, rarely in play at the 9th, was filled in one weekday, the outcry from the membership that Saturday was such that it had been restored by the following Monday evening.  A hole that would be unacceptable to the professionals, but is dearly loved by the members, is the blind short 5th; a member, who had obviously had problems there, wrote in the Suggestion Book in the 1880s, that “the Himalayas (the hill between the tee and green) be thrown into the burn.” There were no supporters.....  We would also be unable to control the crowds; we were unable so to do when the Open was last at Prestwick in 1925, so think of the problem today with ten times that number.

The land to the north of the current 10th fairway is playable. There was a controversial plan to expand the course in this direction in the late 1930s - a short hole running through the dunes between the ninth hole and the Pow burn, a long hole crossing and following the Pow towards its mouth, and then a hole back to the current 10th green.  The club was split about its merits; Lord Rowallan, a member at that time, wrote in the Suggestion Book in October 1937 “the new holes be reserved for members of the Committee, six times to constitute a round, and the flags be replaced in the old greens for the use of ordinary members who play for pleasure.”  The Committee’s response was that it “did not feel justified in accepting this privilege.”  The affair rumbled on with feelings remaining strong.  The matter was to be decided at an extraordinary general meeting two years later, but a month before the meeting was due to be held, the 2nd World War started and the plan was dropped.

We do play the original 12 hole course from time to time, as we will during the celebrations of the 150th anniversary of the first Open next year. It's dangerous, as three holes cross on the 17th fairway. We still contest a few original holes such as the 13th and the 17th (which Vardon I think called the best par 4 in the world), and some of the original greens remain in use (e.g. the 2nd) although approached from different directions.  The first hole was 578 yards long to the 16th green from a tee now marked by a plaque. Young Tom Morris holed out in 3 shots in 1870, an albatross as the hole was a par 6.  But alas, the green in the grass in the middle of the Cardinal bunker is now only played when we revert to yesteryear.

A couple of additional comments after reading what people have written.  Once a year we have a cross country match with Royal Troon - the first 8 holes at Prestwick followed by the last 10 at Troon, playing the others after lunch. And to the best of my knowledge, the holes have never been renumbered i.e. the 15 to the 18th becoming 1 to 4.  We don’t like change! 

There are two excellent books, Shaw's Prestwick published in 1938 (it has maps of the course since its inception as well as changes that were proposed but not effected in the early 1900s - a gem for any budding architect), and David Smail's more recent Prestwick Golf Club, full of information; you can usually find both for sale on Abe.

Finally, should any of you wish a game on our hallowed links, please contact me.

Iain


Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2009, 06:07:25 AM »
Iain,

Welcome to GCA! What an insight you have given to us. On this thread Adrian Stiff talked about putting in 2 holes north of the 10th green but the club has already thought about it 70-80 yrs ago!
Are there any drawings of this proposal that exist?

These Open 2020 drawings are purely an exercise to test other existing courses in the UK that could potentially hold an Open with changes often required by the R and A and 21st century hospitality and spectator needs.

GCA is a discussion group which enable us (some of them experts in GCA) to have diiferent view of what ifs. I understand fully in reality at this current stage Prestwick golf course will never change its current layout.

I have never played Prestwick but I have heard from reliable sources that it is a fantastic course and better to play on than Turnberry and Troon.

There are a number of people in this GCA group would dearly love to play a round on the original 12 hole course. There are a number of us that have played the reverse Old course at St Andrews.

Maybe you could do a write up with images for the 'My Home Course' section of GCA which would be great!

I would love to have a round on your hallowed links

Cheers

Ben
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 06:10:04 AM by Ben Stephens »

Rich Goodale

Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2009, 06:16:10 AM »
Thanks, Ian, for confirming that my flight of fantasy expressed in post #30 above has some merit!  What is the rough length of the Prestwick-->Troon routing?

In a related manner an old member at Troon told me 25-30 years ago that they used to have a charity cross country event playing from Prestwick St. Nicholas all the way up to Barassie.  Is that still played?  if so, what is the date?  I'd love to come across and see it.  It would be the closest thing in Scotland to point to the facinating Irish sport of road bowling.

Welcome to GCA and enjoy.

Rich

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prestwick 2020 Open - course layout WIP
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2009, 08:18:25 AM »
Thanks Iain, a truly fascinating post with great insight and local knowledge!