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TEPaul

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2007, 10:07:19 AM »
I know, Richard, that everthing under the sun was invented in Scotland (with perhaps the exception of Arts and Crafts Golf Course Architecture). It's just that the Scots have never known how to market anything. They pretty much had to leave that to the English and particularly the Americans. A good example is Andrew Carnegie. Poor chap had to leave Scotland and come over here to make his mark and make any money.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 10:08:37 AM by TEPaul »

Brent Hutto

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2007, 10:20:28 AM »
You know, for Tour players on most courses the use of "level 4's" as a standard rather than "par" would make less of a difference than for most players. Very seldom does a long hole play at or over five strokes on average for a Tour event and many two-shotters play at an average greater than four strokes. Even the short holes nowadays are generally so long and/or difficult that they average well over three strokes.

Not that there would be any advantage to it but it's an interesting wrinkle to the elite player's game that the scores of all three types of holes sort of converges toward four strokes on average.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The invention of par
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2007, 10:39:13 AM »
It is interesting that the term is based on a Stock Market term.

There might be more here than just having found what should become the anthem for GCA.com. Hush Hush Hush

The current mindset of maintaining Par at or around a specific number (69,70,71,72) is not in keeping with the fluidity of a Stock's price. Allowances for growth and uber growth, which we have seen in the value of Stock Markets around the world, increased abilities of players, and, the distance the equiptment allows the ball to travel would make Par currently in the 65 range.

I'll admit it's obtuse, but if we really analyze it, it is the adherence to that 70ish number that is pushing the 8k yard BDM. (Baton Death March)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2007, 11:26:32 AM »
I know, Richard, that everthing under the sun was invented in Scotland (with perhaps the exception of Arts and Crafts Golf Course Architecture). It's just that the Scots have never known how to market anything. They pretty much had to leave that to the English and particularly the Americans. A good example is Andrew Carnegie. Poor chap had to leave Scotland and come over here to make his mark and make any money.

Tom

Carnegie was a mental midget who couldn't make it in Scotland.  When he moved to Pennsylvania he raised the average IQ of both places.

TEPaul

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2007, 11:39:16 AM »
"Tom
Carnegie was a mental midget who couldn't make it in Scotland.  When he moved to Pennsylvania he raised the average IQ of both places."

Uh, huh, right Ricardo, Andrew Carnegie was a real mental midget!!  ;) :)

I think a comprehensive thread should be started to determine why it is you're so completely defensive about most everything to do with Scotland. What are you really trying to hide?  ;)

Could it be that so many Scots had to come over here simply because there just NEVER WAS much over there "To Make", as it were?

I mean, you know, Pal, hanging out with the sheep and rabbits in the day and hanging out in the pubs at night probably gets kinda old kinda fast. ;)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The invention of par
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2007, 01:03:00 PM »
Speaking of par, does anybody ever play a "par competition", as seen in USGA Rule 32, anymore?  Did they ever play par competitions?

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The invention of par
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2007, 01:16:23 PM »
We play it once a year and its a great format.

Rich Goodale

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2007, 01:41:58 PM »
Dan

We play "par" competitions once a year at both of my clubs, and I'm usually underwhelmed.  I don't really see the difference between them and a stableford, and in fact in both cases you'll probably never win anything unless you shoot a good proper stroke play score.

TEP

I'm not defending anybody, anything or anyplace--just following Pat Mucci's advice and disagreeing with everything you say.  Pat says that gives me a 98% chance of being right, and he's never been wrong about anything in his life. 8)

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2007, 01:46:58 PM »
Rich,

When did the first "handicap" offset or system come into existance.

Bill Gayne,

Golfers of different abilities, playing from the same tees, can't compete against one another unless there's an offsetting factor, a handicap.

Par and handicap would seem to be inextricably entwined.

Rich Goodale

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2007, 01:56:29 PM »
Pat

My post #16 above gives the earliest reference I know of (1847).

Rich

TEPaul

Re:The invention of par
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2007, 01:59:44 PM »
"Speaking of par, does anybody ever play a "par competition", as seen in USGA Rule 32, anymore?  Did they ever play par competitions?"

Dan:

That is a very good question and may even have more than a little to do with this thread. Get this from Kenneth Chapman's book "The Rules of the Green" (The history of the Rules of Golf);


"The following notice appeared in the April 1744 number of the SCOTS MAGAZINE:


                                                                           Domestick History
                                                                                           Edinburgh

'One application of several persons of honour, skilled in the ancient and healtful excercise of goff, an act of the town council of Edinburgh was passed on the 7th of March, appointing their treasurer to cause making a silver club, of 15 L value, to be played for on the links of Leith the first Monday of April annually. The act appoints, That the candidates names be booked some day of the week preceeding the match, paying 5 s. each at booking: That they be matched into parties of two's or three's, if their number be great, by lot: That the player who shall have won the greatest number of holes, be victor; if two or more shall have won an equal number, that they play a round by themselves in order to determine the match: That the victor be stiled Captain of the Goff; that he append a piece of golf or silver to the club; that he have the sole disposal of the booking money, the determination of disputes among goffers, with the assistance of two or three of the players, and the superintendency of the links,-----Accordingly, the first match was played on the 2nd of April, by the Gentlemen, and won by Mr John Rattray, Surgeon of Edinburgh.'



From Kenneth Chapman:
"The conditions for this match, the first organized tournament we know of have caused justifiably puzzled commentary. Historical records tell us ten players participated, each of them paired with one other player. The victor was to be "the player who shall have won the greatest number of holes," but it's not clear exactly how holes were won. Was the competition played as a match against some standard (another one hundred fifty years or so were to pass before the concept a of par or bogey originated), or was it some sort of Jacobite skins game? It's hard to say, but the good gentlemen of Edinburgh seem to have known what they were up to because they were able to produce an undisputed winner year after year."
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 02:03:15 PM by TEPaul »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The invention of par
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2007, 03:03:44 PM »
Par for TOUR pros is archaic.  It seems to me that its greatest value is to help spectators know who the leaders are in relation to each other.  

For me, it is merely a way to measure my play.  I don't play against "Colonel Bogey" but against "old man par."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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