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wsmorrison

The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« on: June 23, 2007, 06:46:38 AM »
To the superintendents and architects out there, I was told that topdressing Bermuda greens requires considerably more material than topdressing Bent greens.  So much so in fact that Bermuda greens get raised significantly over time with the original green surfaces being raised by 4 inches or so in a decade.  An examination of some Flynn greens in Florida showed that the greens are significantly higher today than originally constructed.  

How much of the integration of slopes and/or contours are lost over time?  What of the transition between surrounds and greens?  Does this create a significantly different playability than intended?  If so, are there any solutions to maintaining Bermuda green complexes in a manner consistent with the original design intent?  Do the newer varieties of Bermuda grasses require less topdressing?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Eric Franzen

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2007, 07:04:36 AM »
I don't have any deeper input regarding this, and like Wayne awaits the answers from superintendents and architects out there, but...

Wasn't the greens at Pinehurst No. 2, before they changed to Penn, one of the most clear examples of Bermuda greens getting significantly raised (with changed playability) due to repetitive topdressing over a long period of time?


 

Mike_Young

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2007, 07:08:57 AM »
I have heard some supts say this with the older bermuda grass varieties....and i tink it has to do with the size of the plant and the area within that has to be filled..I would assume this is not so with the new ultradwarfs.....personally I have seen bermuda greens with a few inches of thatch where they had not been topdressed....
I know Tony  has bermuda greens that are very good....maybe he can comment....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

wsmorrison

Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2007, 08:06:14 AM »
Mike,

A course you know well, and your father-in-law even more so, is the one I was told about.  My source mentioned exactly as you stated, the size of the plant and the area that needs fill.  He said the older Bermuda grasses required approximately 8x as much fill as Bent grass greens.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2007, 10:17:42 AM »
Wayne,
While it's true the older bermuda grasses needed more sand to stay smooth, I don't think it had that large of an effect on the green/surrounds interface if only because a lot of the sand used would end up on the surrounds. And it would take a lot of sand over many, many years to create a noticeable change with the green's complexes.

Yes the newer bermudas require less sand, not necessarily less topdressing, to remain smooth. We put it out more frequently, but a lot lighter than in the old days.

I have used more sand with bermuda then with bent. Bermuda is used in areas with longer growing seasons and it can pretty much handle topdressing no matter how hot and nasty it is. Bents tend to be used in areas with shorter growing seasons, which means fewer topdressings, and in areas with long growing seasons where bents are used, you need to be careful not to use to much sand during periods of high heat.

Hope that helps.  
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 01:30:26 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

wsmorrison

Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 08:22:26 PM »
Yes, Don.  Thank you for your expertise, much obliged.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2007, 04:07:00 PM »
Wayne,
  Interesting that this topic has been brought up. I have 3 interns from various turf colleges and just recently, we have begun to raise all our irrigation heads around our greens. When asked as to why were doing this, this is the exact reason. Majority of these heads are not able to spray the putting surface or surround without hitting the lip of the soil. The heads are being raised anywhere from 3-4 inches. Our greens were resurfaced in 2001. Since then, we have tried to verticut and topdress every 2 weeks from April until October 1st. In the same time frame, the greens are core aerified and topdressed 3 times. We brush in the topdressing sand in lines as to try our best to not alter any of Mr. Dye's contours. We feel that doing circles to brush the sand in would allow excess sand to build up on countours and the edges of the collars. We feel, without a doubt, this is because of years of topdressing.
  Granted, the newer varieties need less sand, but it needs to be done in a much more frequent manner-10-14 days in the growing season. Tifdwarf is an older variety that could just be buried and the grass would grow through it. Not so with the Tifeagle, Champion or Emerald. Hope so of this helps.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

paul cowley

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2007, 04:31:31 PM »
Wayne....during our restoration of the Brunswick CC [Ross 1937], we found up to 2' of accumulated topdressing above the original seed bed level....all in approximately 80 years.

They just seemed to keep putting on new without taking any away.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Steve Okula

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2007, 04:41:16 PM »
There are stories of Old Tom Morris at the Old Course always calling for more sand to be spread on the greens.

Granted, they're not bermudagrass, but those greens have been topdressed regularly for 150 years or so. As far as I know, they haven't had a lot of renovation in the past century and a half.

How is it those contours appear to preserve their integrity?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

wsmorrison

Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2007, 05:20:48 PM »
Paul,

Thanks.  That would seem to confirm my source regarding the amount of topdressing necessary for Bermuda greens.  Can anyone tell me when did topdressing became commonplace?

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 12:03:53 AM »
Wayne....during our restoration of the Brunswick CC [Ross 1937], we found up to 2' of accumulated topdressing above the original seed bed level....all in approximately 80 years.

They just seemed to keep putting on new without taking any away.

Paul, is that project done now?  I would love to get out there and see it sometime.  I remember you talking about this project, but couldnt remember how long ago we were talking.

Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

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paul cowley

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Re:The Effects of Topdressing Bermuda Greens
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 03:23:27 AM »
Daryl......we are grassing it now and it should open early November.
Come down then and be my guest.

Its very good.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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