News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


CHrisB

Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« on: May 11, 2007, 06:00:39 PM »
As a professional, Tiger Woods has played Riviera (L.A. Open) 9 times without a win, and the TPC Sawgrass (Players) 10 times with only 1 win. Tiger didn't play at Riviera in 2007, and is struggling at The Players through 2 rounds this year.

Though Tiger has had plenty of good finishes at each venue, clearly these must be the two courses that have given Tiger the most trouble with respect to winning tournaments.

So what (if anything) does the architecture of these two courses have in common that might be more difficult for Tiger in particular to handle?

And what are the architectural differences with courses like Firestone, Torrey Pines, and Bay Hill, where Tiger has won the most often?

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2007, 10:08:08 PM »
I would think not being able to overpower the golf course would be the major factor.  Also, some golf courses don't some people's eyes, and can't ever get comfortable.  I think these two are examples of that for Tiger.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 11:38:04 PM »
Dudes

Tiger is wild off the tee.  He stinks with the driver lately.  

It gets him into trouble.  On some courses he can overcome.  Apparently at TPC he cannot.  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

CHrisB

Re:Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2007, 12:41:03 AM »
Michael,

I'm not sure it is that simple (Tiger is having problems through the bag this week, from 50% fairways hit to 50% greens hit to a 2.000 putts per green hit), but even it it were, what is it about the TPC Sawgrass (or Riviera) that makes it more difficult for him to recover than some of the places he's won a lot?

When you consider that there are 4 par 5's at TPC Sawgrass, which normally means an extra advantage for him, his low winning percentage there is even more interesting.

The only things I can come up with about Riviera and TPC Sawgrass which might be a factor are (1) they are two courses where angles actually do matter--it does matter what side of the hole or the fairway you drive it to, and (2) the greens may somewhat tricky to read, albeit in different ways (competing slopes at Riviera and "early season" putting surfaces; sectioned greens with grain at TPC Sawgrass). The second one is more of a guess, but I know Tiger doesn't care for inconsistent putting surfaces and seems particularly irked when he mis-reads putts, so who knows.

To me it's just interesting to consider what there is (if anything) about the architecture that may be keeping the best player in the world from competing as well at these two courses.

In the end, these two courses may just not fit his eye as well as others for whatever reason, but I have a feeling he doesn't really like TPC Sawgrass that much and maybe not Pete Dye courses in general (is it possible that Pete Dye is the only one who can get inside Tiger's head?).

Jim Nugent

Re:Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2007, 01:15:07 AM »
Dudes

Tiger is wild off the tee.  He stinks with the driver lately.  

It gets him into trouble.  On some courses he can overcome.  Apparently at TPC he cannot.  

At Riviera I'm not sure that's a problem.  Last year's winner hit 46% of the fairways.  This year's winner hit 51.8%, and the guy he beat in the playoff hit 53.6%.  

Accuracy off the tee is not necessarily crucial at TPC either.  So far, Phil has hit 39.3% of fairways.  Green, currently in 2nd place, has hit 42%.  Tiger has hit MORE fairways than either one.  He's also hit the same number of greens as Phil.  

Two big differences so far.  Phil is averaging 1.611 putts per GIR; TW is averaging 2.0.  Also Phil is 100% in scrambling so far.  TW has gotten up and down 60% of the time.  

That points up Tiger's problem at Riviera.  He's putted terribly.  Here's the article PGATour.com did on this...

"Analysis of Woods at the Nissan Open
By Mike Vitti
PGA TOUR staff    

Since turning pro in 1996, Tiger Woods has played in the Nissan Open eight times. The native Californian also played in the tournament twice as an amateur.

Yet, the Nissan Open is the only tournament that Woods has played at least three times and not recorded a victory. It is intriguing to ponder why.

Seven of the eight years in which Woods has played in the Nissan Open the tournament was held at Riviera Country Club. The lone exception is 1998 when Valencia Country Club hosted the event and Woods finished second to Billy Mayfair in sudden death -- his only loss in 10 playoffs on the PGA TOUR.

So since Woods almost won at Valencia -- and it was a one-time move, I focused on his seven starts as a professional at the Riviera Country Club.

It is truly difficult to say that Woods has struggled at the Nissan Open or that the course confounds him in any way. In three of his starts, Woods placed in the top 10 and he has an average finish of 11th overall. The worst finish he has ever recorded in the tournament was a tie for 20th in 1997 -- his first start at Riviera as a pro.

Woods' scoring average on the par-71 layout is 69.07, and 16 of his 30 rounds have been in the 60s. Still, 1999 is the only year in which Woods put four rounds under par together in the same tournament, and as well as he has played at Riviera, Woods has never finished less than two shots behind the leader.

Woods at the Nissan Open

Year    Winner     Score to Par    Woods' Finish    Woods' Score
2005    Adam Scott      -9              T-13          -5
2004    Mike Weir        -17          T-7            -10
2003    Mike Weir        -9          T-5              -6
2001    Robert Allenby -8                T-13            -5
2000    Kirk Triplett      -12                  T-18              -5
1999    Ernie Els      -14                    T-2              -12
1997    Nick Faldo      -12                  T-20            -3


As with most courses, Woods takes advantage of the par 5s -- making birdie or better roughly 57 percent of the time. Some of this strong play on the par 5s has been tempered, though, by his scoring on the par 3s where he has recorded more bogeys (19) than he has birdies (14). This par-3 difference, while interesting, cannot be the sole reason for Woods' victory drought at Riviera.

Where is Woods losing ground? The answer lies on the greens.

While many of his statistics in the ball-striking categories rival and exceed the same stats for the winners, his putting averages have usually lagged behind that of the eventual champ. The one exception to this came in 1997 when Woods' putting statistics were close to the winner, Nick Faldo, but he hit seven less greens in regulation than the Brit.

Nissan Open 1997-2005, Winners Putting Statistics

Year    Winner    Putting Average    Putts per round    3 putts    One Putts
2005    Adam Scott    1.615                  26.00                0                  18
2004    Mike Weir    1.543                    24.75                  0    39
2003    Mike Weir    1.717                    27.00                  0    30
2001    Robert Allenby    1.712              28.75                0    28
2000    Kirk Triplett    1.661                  29.50                  0    26
1999    Ernie Els    1.574                      26.50              0    34
1997    Nick Faldo    1.652                    26.25               0    37

Nissan Open 1997-2005, Tiger Woods Putting Statistics

Year    Putting Average    Putts per round    3 putts    One Putts
2005    1.815                        30.00                          3    15
2004    1.633                        28.00                          1    33
2003    1.729                        28.50                          4    30
2001    1.850                        27.75                          1    20
2000    1.882                        29.50                          4    29
1999    1.729                        27.75                          0    33
1997    1.744                        26.75                          1    34
           
Often putting issues are the result of poor positioning on the greens, but in the two four-round, ShotLink-era events (2003 and 2004) Woods ranked in the top 20 in average proximity to the hole on approach. While this is a subset of his appearances at Riviera, it tends to point more to a lack of comfort on the greens than issues with attacking the pins.

None of the winners ever three-putted during the week, while Woods only managed to go without a three-putt in 1999 -- and that year he averaged more than one extra putt per round, yet still finished only two shots out of first place. Add up the strokes left on the greens, and that would have put Woods in a tie for the lead or even given him the outright victory.

Once Woods solves the mystery on the greens at Riviera Country Club, look for him to add at least one more trophy to his ever-expanding collection."


Glenn Spencer

Re:Riviera / TPC Sawgrass vs. Tiger Woods
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 01:28:23 AM »
Riviera? Something is up there, yes. I don't know if I am ready to throw Sawgrass in there though. US Amateur, a Players and didn't he finish second to Sutton? I think you could say time of year  as much as anything for Sawgrass. It could be Dye though, still, what Dye's has he won on? Honors, TPC and? Of course, he hasn't played a lot of them, either.