DRIVING ACCURACY?

[JESII]

What you guys have stated as a "loss of options" is actually a loss of control.

Can you imagine following Tiger, Appleby, Mickleson, Goosen and on, and on, and on, around a golf course for four days...


It's actually really funny to go 51 weeks of you guys bitching about flogging and then the one week that flogging doesn't work you bitch about trees...

[Brent Hutto]

So let's enumerate the ways of enforcing some sort of target orientation off the tee:

1) Trees

2) Light rough

3) Heavy rough

4) Water hazards

5) Fairway bunkering

6) Greenside bunkering

7) Green firmness/contour

What is the consensus GCA view of the desirability of these? Obviously a great many people consider trees undesirable for this purpose. Fairway bunkers and light rough are basically no impediment to top players nowadays, although I guess light rough combined with hard/contoured greens can have an effect. Making players hit over a greenside bunker is a weak penalty for top players because the greenside bunkers themselves are no great hazard.

So it really comes down to either heavy rough or water hazards. Does anyone really consider Doral (or maybe TPC Sawgrass) to be a better major venue than the new, over-treed Augusta National? Or would you rather see six inches of "third cut" enforcing the tee-shot line rather than trees?

[JESII]

The rabid attacks all last week and through the weekend really bothered me. I just didn't feel like fighting as you have done, Shivas...I'm with you though. It makes for great TV, every stinkin' year.

[Dan Boerger]

JES - Fully agree ... Most courses in the US are probably over-treed (if that's a word), but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. What I saw this weekend was a great course that tested driving, mid iron, short iron and putting ability. Were the landing areas small? Perhaps, but if you hit the target you were usually rewarded. I didn't see a long drive down the center run through into the rough or under a tree.

[A.G._Crockett]

It DOES make for great TV every stinking year because ANGC has the coolest set of greens on the planet.  It will almost always be that way, but if you want me to buy into the idea that this tournament was the equal in excitement to what the Masters has been in the past, I won't.

I have NEVER been on the anti-flogging bandwagon, so I give myself a pass on lamenting the trees at ANGC.  The beauty of that design was the multiple avenues of attack, and those are gone, at least in part.  Kostis estimated that 30% of the options/avenues of attack that ANGC used to be about have now been removed.

If the Masters wishes to reward above all else the ability to hit a driver down the center of the fairway, it is their course and their tournament.  If they want 15 to be a hole on which zero eagles are made on Sunday even with more benign weather and softer greens, then it is their course and their tournament.  If they wish to protect par to the detriment of GCA, then it is their course and their tournament.  However, I am NOT required to like it or think it is a good idea.

The added length I understand.  The reduced angles I do not understand.  That is NOT pro-flogging, though I understand that there is a connection.  As has been mentioned elsewhere on GCA, name another great course in the world that is ADDING trees!

[JESII]

AG,

Is there any way to support that 30% number?


I'd be more than happy to go through the course hole-by-hole and listen to those of you that know the course and analyze which shot options have been eliminated.

Have there been any changes to 1,2 or 3?

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

Is there any way to support that 30% number?


I'd be more than happy to go through the course hole-by-hole and listen to those of you that know the course and analyze which shot options have been eliminated.

Have there been any changes to 1,2 or 3?

The 30% number was an estimate by Kostis during the Saturday telecast.

[JESII]

I understand AG, I am just curious if it could possibly that high and was hoping some of you that know the course could help walk through it.

[A.G._Crockett]

I wish I knew enough to do that.

One shot that seems to me to have largely vanished is the big sling hook that some players used to try off the tee on 15.  I don't remember seeing anybody in the creek or up in the woods left on 15 (though I'm sure somebody must have been...)  Maybe that is an example and plays into the fact that there were NO eagles at 15 on Sunday.

[Dan Boerger]

Trees -- like water -- eliminate shot options. Denude Augusta of all trees and you'll have more shot options. Guaranteed. (Same is true at Pine Valley.) But, I don't understand the logic that decreasing shot options to strengthen a hole is universally a bad thing.

[JESII]

Trees -- like water -- eliminate shot options. Denude Augusta of all trees and you'll have more shot options. Guaranteed. (Same is true at Pine Valley.) But, I don't understand the logic that decreasing shot options to strengthen a hole is universally a bad thing.

Dan,

Of course you are right, but in the context of the Masters and its contestants, could a hole really offer more than three maybe four options for an overall strategy? Horizontal options that it.

[Dan Boerger]

JES - I don't disagree that a hole might be better served by offering more than 3 or 4 horizontal options. That stated, the hole (or holes) in question should probably be viewed in the context of the entire course (other holes, green complexes, etc.) Should 14 have been strengthened as such? Does it make the course less playable, more boring, unfair or does it make it more exciting requiring a more exacting tee shot and fairer in that it rewards the more concise shot? Just my opinion ... but I like 14 better now as it plays for the Masters.

[Doug Siebert]

Shivas,

Sounds like a good idea, but first someone would need to verify the Google Earth images are current.  Some are several years old, though I think they have a place where you can put in a request they be updated.

I think it would be hilarious if Google got 1500 requests to update their Google Earth coverage of a couple hundred acres in Georgia just to settle this argument

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

What you guys have stated as a "loss of options" is actually a loss of control.

Can you imagine following Tiger, Appleby, Mickleson, Goosen and on, and on, and on, around a golf course for four days...


It's actually really funny to go 51 weeks of you guys bitching about flogging and then the one week that flogging doesn't work you bitch about trees...

JES II,

I'd agree with your take.

What most don't understand is that the playing corridors are still fairly wide.

In addition, few understand how many holes are doglegs or PLAY like doglegs, which impacts long drivers and brings non-fairway elements into play.

And, very few understand the natural extension of the tree lines that have existed for decades.

I'd like to see width restored after each tournament as a form of horizontal elasticity.

[Joe Hancock]

I never drive the ball as accurately when the wind is up.....

Joe

[John Kirk]

I realize I'm tooting my own horn, but isn't it true that the Masters is so great each year because of the number of shots that take such a long time to come to rest?  The fast, sloped greens with short grass surrounding makes for great television viewing.  Rory Sabbatini's eagle putt took forever to get there.

Whether or not the fairways are narrowed by trees, the Masters retains its greatness because of the greens.  It's so damn fun to watch the ball roll.

As I said before in a previous thread, the added trees do two things.  They place a higher premium on accuracy, and they increase the element of chance, as players can either be stymied by the trees, or find a lucky avenue to safety.

It was a great tournament, and I loved watching.  However, Zach Johnson won without trying to reach a single par 5 in two shots.

[Doug Siebert]

Sabbatini's eagle put was great, but IMHO Darren Clarke had the shot of the tournament on 18 on Thursday.  There should be a video of it in the GCA dictionary under "John Kirk's Unified Theory"

[Bryan Izatt]

Shivas,

The Google Earth image is post lengthening but pre-tree invasion.  At 290 from the 502 yard tee the fairway (and first cut) used to be about 95 yards wide as in the first picture.  Using the GD article as a guide I put the new trees in (with some distortion) in the second picture.  At the same 290 from the tee the width now appears to be a little less that 50 yards - still plenty generous.