[Mike Hendren]

Elsewhere, Flynn apologist Wayne Morrison stated that when Ross was bad, he was pretty bad.  

Examples of pretty bad Ross courses?

Cause when I'm bad
I'm so, so bad.
- Donna Summers

[Brad Tufts]

There are a number of Ross courses in New England that generally fall under this category, but I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them "bad."

They are usually courses he mailed plans to, and sent a construction associate to build.

They tend to have a few good holes, and a bunch of blah or short and quirky holes.

Courses in NH that come to mind are Maplewood and Bethlehem CC, Sandy Burr in MA.  They aren't "bad," they are actually sort of fun and quirky, but they certainly aren't great.

Toytown Tavern GC was a onsite Ross course, and is now most of the Winchendon School GC, and this course is pretty bad.  The only hyped onsite-Ross course I've played is Mt. Washington, but again, it isn't bad, it's just benign and a bit boring.

[wsmorrison]

Maybe pretty bad is too harsh.  Courses that fall far short of his potential include the original courses at McCall Field (Phila Electric Co course), Indian Spring (NLE) and possibly Pocono Manor.

[Andy Troeger]

Personally, I wouldn't call Belleview Biltmore in Florida "really bad" or even so much "bad" as just "uneventful." Its flat as is normal in Florida, and I don't recall there being that much else going on either.

EDIT: I think there was a renovation/restoration done here, so it may be better now than 5 or so years ago.

[Chris_Blakely]

The Woodlands GC in Hampton Roads, VA is a very bad Ross course, but only because of the 695 or 664 highway caused major revovations to the coruse.  Not a good course at all, but not much Ross there at all either (two holes I believe).

I did not find the Winchendon School GC to be what I would call "pretty bad."  It is short and quirky.  It starts out with two fun par 3 holes and has some quirky greens.  The course suffers from two problems bad conditions (tree encroachment in areas and no irrigation system) and it is very short around 5,400 yards.

I did not like Bethlehem CC in NH.  I think that was 9 holes by another architect and 9 hole renovation and 9 hole addition by Ross.  The greens and site are flat and quite boring.  I remember nothing about the course.

[PCCraig]

Brad,

One Ross that I know of ouside of Boston, Newton Commonwealth, is really bad...while one, George Wright, isn't all that bad. Which is interesting considering it's the same type of facility.

I think I do have the all time worst Ross design still around...Indian Hill CC in Winnetka, IL.

Pat

[Glenn Spencer]

Piqua CC near Dayton, Ohio is nothing to write home about. Same with Miami Shores nearby in Troy. Mike Young and I went round and round about Dayton CC. I tend to think that he is on to something, but it is credited to Ross. I would put that in the decidedly average category.  Mill Creek in Youngstown is not the best Ross I have ever seen. I stil can't make up my mind about Lancaster. A lot of blind shots off the tee, which I like, but maybe too many here. Strange course, but I think I liked it. Interesting routing at the end though. 16 a blind tee shot par 5. 17 a blind second shot par 5 and 18 240 yard par 3. I usually like his efforts, so maybe these aren't bad, but they certainly aren't great.

[michael j fay]

The worst I have seen was the Carter CC in Lebanon, NH. The par three ninth plays over the parking lot and on a number of holes one can be killed by a stray from three or four directions.

Most of the courses named earlier have been more than tinkered with over the years. The NH courses in particular have been altered. Belleview Biltmore in Clearwater (originally the Belleview Biltmore AKA the Pelican CC) was indeed renovated about five/six years ago. Prior to that renovation it had been altered on a couple of occasions. The course is much better today than it was in 2000 when I first played it.

Toy Town Tavern is an enigma, it was really an executive layout if you would.

Mt. Tom in Holyoke (once Wyckoff Park) has never recovered from the introduction of I-91 in 1959.

George Wright is really a rather clever and challenging layout that lacks general conditioning.

Pocono Manor bears little or no resemblence to the original design.

[Eric Pevoto]

Has anybody seen Sunset Grove in Orange, TX?  Although I grew up in east TX and played several courses in that area, I never made it over there.  Nuzzo?

[David_Tepper]

I played the Ross-designed course at the Algonquin Hotel, St. Andrews by the Sea, New Brunswick, Canada, in 1991. My memories of the course are pretty hazy, but I don't remember being impressed by the course in any way.

Of course, I have no idea of how faithful the course was at that point to Ross's design. I also recall reading that the course has had a face-lift/renovation in recent years. If anyone knows how it turned out, please let us know.

[Mark_Fine]

Not all Ross courses are great and not all Ross courses are still Ross.  As we all know, one has to be careful what they are looking at as most of his courses (what is left of them) are pretty darn old and have evolved one way or the other for better or for worse.  The same goes for any of the other classic designers.  

I think it was Geoff Shackelford who once stated in a Golf Magazine article something along the lines that, "Only about 10% of the work of the Golden Age architects still exists."  Some will beg to differ with that statement but remember that doesn't necessarily mean that their courses have disappeared, it means that much of what they originally laid out has been tampered with.  Look at a course like Lehigh as just one example, I wonder how many people know about all the greens that were rebuilt by the Superintendent many years ago?  Probably very few.  

[Martin Del Vecchio]

One Ross that I know of ouside of Boston, Newton Commonwealth, is really bad...

Newton Commonwealth is bad.  Very bad.  But my understanding is that the club sold off some land years ago to housing developers, and had to shrink the holes to fit the remaining land.

[Mark_Fine]

Martin,
Great example but don't blame Ross!  Pat would be better to phrase his statement as, "One course that used to be a Ross design that I know of ouside of Boston, Newton Commonwealth, is really bad..."

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