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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
The really good and difficult one-shot holes offered up above fall into two categories:

-heroic forced carries like Ocean 17, PV 5, or TPC-SG 17
-more forgiving yet judicious like Carnoustie 16, Dornoch 2, or Shinny 11

In your opinion, which is a better test of skill and why?  

Which do average and professional golfers prefer?

Jim Bearden

16 at CPC is I think one of the toughest especialy in the wind. Ben Hogan always took the bailout. Pros today find it easier. BTW 18 there as previously said is very demanding in that you have no margin for error. While everyone disses it I think 18 is a great hole  because it is difficult.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
James,

In 1901, it was possible for several qualified people to answer this question.  Is anyone qualified to answer this question today?  

I'm certainly not, but here are a couple of nominees based on my own experience:

Par 3
#15 Bandon Dunes, into the summer breeze.
#3 Olympic Club Lake
#13 French Lick
#7 Royal County Down

Par 4
Second John Kirk’s vote for #13 at Pacific Dunes, into the breeze and with the hole cut at the front
#3 Royal County Downh
#17 Bandon Dunes
#8, #9 Pebble Beach
#11, #16 Pasatiempo
#4 Spyglass
Pinehurst—only played it once, but I think there are several candidates--#2, #14?

Par 5
#6, #7 Highlands Links
#6 Carnoustie upwind

Stupid-hard, a la #10 de la Viega
#1 Erin Hills (par 5)—switch the nines before it’s too late, Please!!
#14 Meadow Course, Blackwolf Run (par4)—into the late-afternoon summer sun, this hole is impossible
#18 Straits Course, Whistling Straits (par 4)—unfortunate end to an otherwise great golf course.
Any par 5 set up by the USGA for the US Open at Pebble, Olympic, Pinehurst
Any hole that should be a par 5 that is turned into a par 4 by the USGA for the US Open


Eric:

Yours is about the fourth or fifth comment posted on GCA re. the 18th at Whistling Straits, and I know several of the pros complained about it at the PGA held there recently.

What gives? I've not played it, merely walked it a few times, and to me, it looked like a pretty cool hole. Semi-blind tee shot (admittedly, the championship tee is waaaay back there), with a longish iron over a ravine to multiple pin positions. OK, the cloverleaf green is a bit gimmicky, but so is an island par 3 surrounded by water, and that generally gets accolades for toughness.

I'm not necessarily defending the 18th at WS -- I think there are several better holes there. But I'm struck by the criticism of a hole that seems to have some merit. How does it play?

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm not necessarily defending the 18th at WS -- I think there are several better holes there. But I'm struck by the criticism of a hole that seems to have some merit. How does it play?

Phil, I'll use some quotes from the Straits Course web site to support my view.

Hole 18 - Dyeabolical
"A well struck tee shot down the right side will surely find the fairway, but will leave a mid to long iron for the approach to the green."

This is the only option for most players--that is, from tee to green, it's a single-option hole.  It might as well be a water-lined corridor.  If you hit it in the rough off the tee, your only option is to lay up.  Good drive or not, you have a mid to long iron approach, and not much room for error around the green (see below), so the hole is generally a binary outcome--disaster or "glad to make a 5."  

"A more aggressive line off the tee to the left leaves a shorter approach but demands at least a 270 yard carry over sand dunes and bunkers."

This is nonsense for most players, obviously.  I recall an area on the left that could be made into an optional landing area with a shorter carry.  But they let the rough grow knee-high over there...

"The downhill landing area must be considered to avoid a shot that travels too far and must stop short of sand dunes and a drop-off to Seven Mile Creek."

Irritating.  If you're going to move a jillion yards of dirt, why would you build a hole with a downhill landing area that PUNISHES the player who reaches it, rather than REWARDING him?  The first time I played the hole (from the 413yd green tees) my caddy suggested driver, and I guess I outwitted him and hit a good one, which ended up going through the fairway.  Can't remember which way the wind was blowing, but looking at the yardage guide I can see that driver wasn't a very good idea with that downhill landing area.  In subsequent plays, I have just laid back with a 5-wood, necessitating an even longer approach.

"Even though the approach is downhill, swirling winds surrounding the green complex forces players to play an extra club into the green which demands a forced carry over Seven Mile Creek, guarding the front side of this huge green."

An extra club?  So now I'm hitting a fairway metal instead of a 4-iron?  With all the trouble, the wind, and a long club, it's difficult to “take dead aim” at most of the possible pin placements.  Sane people are generally making a cautious play out to the right, which might be OK except there's little room for error over there too, with a steep slope full of gaudy unnatural bunkers behind the green and pinching the bottom of the cloverleaf. (check the flyover on the web site to see what I mean).

"The green is more than 18,000 square feet with quite a bit of undulations to negotiate."

Why not reduce the size of the green, blow up the bunkers behind the green and instead make the right side and behind the green a bail-out area with a difficult up and down?  As it is, the hole is kind of a blunt instrument, with no subtlety, no fun, just tight-sphincter golf.  I think the rest of the Straits Course holes, with the possible exception of #5, have a better risk-reward type design.

Thanks for giving me a reason to get that off my chest!   :D

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Eric:

Well, as Mucci might suggest, that's the difference between walking the hole a few times and playing it. I'll defer to your judgement on the merits/demerits of how it plays. I did get the sense that Dye really did want a difficult finishing hole, and I always keep in mind that Dye and Kohler built the course first and foremost for championship golf at the highest levels -- the target audience was Tiger and his comrades -- and that they were less concerned about "fitting" the course for lesser golfers. Maybe 18 is one of those holes that works better from the way-back tees, e.g, making the pros think about that 270-yard carry, and giving them a downhill lie for an approach shot that needs to carry a ravine.

I know on GCA there is a lot of talk about how some course features on historic courses -- bunkers, streams, certain approaches -- don't work as well with the improvements in technology, forcing courses to increase their length. Maybe the 18th at the Straits works in reverse -- a hole geared up totally for today's technology that works poorly for the regular folks. I'll agree that the green and its surrounds are a bit goofy.

I've opined before on the Straits' 5th hole -- it's the one that Dye credits with making the course possible in the first place, because of state-ordered wetlands remediation. Dye essentially had to have a "no net loss" of wetlands on the course, and he traded what he got for all the lake-side holes for what everyone views as a less-than-stellar 5th hole. Dye, to his credit, has never shied away from acknowledging the somewhat compromised nature of the hole.