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Jeff Goldman

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Re:Rate Bethpage Black
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2007, 01:08:22 PM »
From what I'm reading, the prodigious length (along with the narrow fairways and big rough) was an important reason why the course "held up to the world's best."

However, I guess it is now time for the annual, this "challenge the world's best" says nothing about how good the architecture is.  I expect that Torrey Pines could play as difficult as the Black at its Open, and no one would claim that that proves that Torrey is anywhere near the equal of the Black.

And anyways, in 2002, a 265 carry to the best part of the fairway on 12, and 260 carries to reach the fairways on 5 and 9 (and others?) was thought to be ridiculous.  Now it's a 3-wood for short hitting pros.  If the distance issue goes away (though I know they have built back tees), is the course still impossible without 2 inch wide fairways and 10 inch rough?  If so, what does that indicate about what Open set-ups tell us about golf courses?  Attempt to connect how a course plays at an Open to how good the course is is pretty faulty, just as, when folks tell me that a course is among the world's best because it is so difficult, I wonder if they think that Butler National is a better golf course than Cypress or NGLA.
That was one hellacious beaver.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Rate Bethpage Black
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2007, 02:33:25 PM »
From what I'm reading, the prodigious length (along with the narrow fairways and big rough) was an important reason why the course "held up to the world's best."

However, I guess it is now time for the annual, this "challenge the world's best" says nothing about how good the architecture is.  I expect that Torrey Pines could play as difficult as the Black at its Open, and no one would claim that that proves that Torrey is anywhere near the equal of the Black.

And anyways, in 2002, a 265 carry to the best part of the fairway on 12, and 260 carries to reach the fairways on 5 and 9 (and others?) was thought to be ridiculous.  Now it's a 3-wood for short hitting pros.  If the distance issue goes away (though I know they have built back tees), is the course still impossible without 2 inch wide fairways and 10 inch rough?  If so, what does that indicate about what Open set-ups tell us about golf courses?  Attempt to connect how a course plays at an Open to how good the course is is pretty faulty, just as, when folks tell me that a course is among the world's best because it is so difficult, I wonder if they think that Butler National is a better golf course than Cypress or NGLA.

Jeff

BB is all about angles and the strategies they built into the course.  On that amazing property everything about the strategies is magnified.
#2 - could be a truly great short par 4 if as Phil implies there are lost pin locations at the edges of the otherwise flat green.  The landing area requires working the ball right to left and you are almost always left with a hanging lie to a massively intimidating uphill approach over a huge and deep bunker complex.
#4 - has what maybe one of the great 2nd shots on a par 5 in all of golf.  Its all setup by your drive and a choice of angles over the crossbunker taking into account the front greenside bunker, fallaway green and bailout but longer carry to the right.
#5 - Offset fairway where bailing left away from the huge fairway bunker creates an much more difficult 2nd shot. Left to right off the tee and right to left for the approach.  
#6 - in non-USGA setups you have choices of anges and lengths to take the tee shot with consequences for each choice.
#7 - hugely angled fairway relative to the multi-ACRE carry bunker.
#9 - Angled fairway and huge upslope on the preferred left side could create blind second if you don't drive well or going to the right creates need to work the ball left to right on the approach.
#11 - Slightly offset fairway and foreshadowed/blind landing area creates deceptive aiming.  Don't aim down what seems like the center of the fairway or you will wind up in the right rough.

I could go on but these are the demands of BB tha tMatt speaks of all the time.  It is far more difficult, strategic and deceptive then Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, SFGC, Baltusrol, or any other TIllinghast course I've seen.

Anyone can create a Torrey Pines-like difficult golf course.  BB is a GREAT, STRATEGIC and difficult golf course. The USGA tricks them all up to compensate for their egos relative to par and the new equipment but without 25 yard fairways BB shines like no other "difficult" ball buster I've ever played.  I'd love to see Oakmont (post- USGA setup)

Matt_Ward

Re:Rate Bethpage Black
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2007, 04:03:01 PM »
Jeff G:

Allow me to respond to your comments.

BB has plenty of architectural qualities -- the issue is allowing the course to be what it is -- and not morphed into some sort of golf layout akin to Barry Bonds on steroids.

What needs to happen at the Black is what was said of those "handlers" who were involved in tempering Ronald Reagan years back. The phrase then -- "let Reagan be Reagan" -- is spot on what I feel about the Black.

Just a short note -- TP / South is Frankenstein gone wild. It is not a golf course of unique pedigree and has been simply morphed into some 7,600+ yard monster with little redeeming characteristics.

I do salute you in mentioning Butler National -- I like the course a lot and often feel it is labeled less so because of the marching orders that came with its creation.

The Black would have fared well in 2002 without the desire by Tom Meeks / et al of the USGA to create such a heavy handed approach. The course identified the game's best in Tiger's win and if the course were simply permitted to play as it was intended you would see even more of the game's best contending there.

The issue I have with BB is that there are quality holes in which length doesn't have to be the first consideration. The 2nd, 6th, 9th, and even the much talked about 18th could be uniquely crafted so that other skills beyond muscle-like play is rewarded.

The Black Course doesn't need additional defense -- save for the kind that defends the course against the incursion of people who simply are clueless on what has made the course so special for so many years.


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