[Jim Franklin]

Sully -

Well stated.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully,

I agree, but in the words of Pee-Wee Herman, there's always a but;

And this but is a big but...

While I agree that a constant stream of long slogs is boring, how does one reintroduce the shot values faced by golfer's a generation ago?

Hows does one reintroduce the shotmaking challenges with "every club in the bag", where a top-level player might need a 2-iron (or today's hybrid equivalent) or even a fairway wood to reach a long par four or long par three?

Those holes would need to be 580 and 280 yards respectively.

Using my example very early in this thread, both scores still add up to four, but they are markedly dissimilar in terms of shot value, challenge, and variety.

As creative and interesting as chipping, pitching, and putting might be, they aren't the same thing as the ability to send a searing 2-iron 220 yards to a tight green as Hogan and Nicklaus did.

[George Pazin]

Along the lines of what Sully said, "defending par at the green" to me means interesting shots and encouraging thoughtful play. Other types of defending par tend to be more dull (like length, water hazards, heavy rough) and cause slow play far more than interesting or difficult green complexes, imho.

As for why it's necessary to defend par, isn't that kind of the whole point of architecture? Thomas said strategy is the soul of the game - can you have strategy without some type of attempted defense?

[JESII]

Mike Cirba,

I've wanted to discuss this with you ever since you started using that tag line about Hogan at Merion. It's not that I disagree with the reality of your statement, I simply disagree that we need to continually keep the "Tour Player" shot values comparable all through history. If that's the goal I'll make a suggestion.

But let me start by talking about the Merion #18 issue and what needs to be done to force Tiger into Driver / 2 iron into a par 4. First off, do you think the Tiger or Phil of today are the best comparisons to a 1950 Ben Hogan in terms of physical strength and driving distance? Secondly, I can tell you from first hand experience that it might be prudent to intentionally lay back a bit on that hole so you do not go over the crest and have to approach that green from a downhill (severe) lie. I cannot say for certain that Hogan intentionally laid back on the 72nd hole in 1950, but it would not surpries me. A soft cut with the driver should have left him on the slight upslope which is a much better position to approach that green from than 30 or 40 yards ahead but on the downslope.


My thoughts on providing Tour caliber players a course with as much diversity in club selection as possible come down to offering tee shots that put diferent clubs in their hands. Give 'em an interesting 245 yard shot requirement from the tee on a par 4. Something along those lines. I am firmly in the camp that 14 driver holes can be way too many.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES II

you make some good and interesting points, and the idea of requiring every shot in the bag through different types of tee shots is a good one, but:

if 14 driver holes are too many (and I agree), so is having 14 8-irons into the greens. And, since that's what it seems the pros ALWAYS have left these days, by all means defend par at the greens

Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

Which pro has 14 8-irons? Corey Pavin?

[George Pazin]

I played a round last year with three 7 irons, and a handful of other clubs!

Check that, two years ago.

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter,

Which pro has 14 8-irons? Corey Pavin?

JES,

I was being conservative, in various ways.

That's neat to introduce Corey Pavin into the discussion like that.  Strange to think of 'short-hitting Corey Pavin' hitting 8-irons into anything.

Peter

[JESII]

275 and 155 is 430...sounds about right for alot of holes today.

I know you were being conservative, unfortunately.

I think unless a hole can do what Archie Struthers asks in his "Length and Accuracy" thread it might as well ask for a different club off the tee.

[Mike Hendren]

Yeah.  That Donald Ross guy.  What a chump!

Mike

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