[kenboyer]

I am a member of a new P.B. Dye designed course which has several greens with severe undulations.  I notice that there are almost always at least two or three pin placements that I consider to be unfair, generally because they are set on either a knoll, a ridge, or on the side of an incline.  And so I am curious, what are the general guidelines by which pin placements are supposed to be set?  How near the edge of a green?  How much of an incline?  Any information that I could pass on to my club would be appreciated.  The course has a 140 slope and is hard enough as it is.

[John_Conley]

It seems they are following the "on the green" guideline!

I share your frustration.  I play a course often (Rock Springs Ridge) where the greens have plenty of cuppable area because the ridges segment the green.  The hole locations often wind up on the ridges instead of the cuppable areas.  

Without getting too detailed, does your course have adequate cuppable areas?  If it does, I think your guideline can just be "to seek out the tame areas."  Spitting out radii and degrees grade on an incline complicates the issue for me when common sense can tell you what is okay and what isn't.

After all, aren't some hole locations okay at one pace and too extreme if the greens are speedy?

[Justin_Zook]

I have had some great experience with this, as my boss can tell you.  There should be at least a 3-4 foot radius around the cup with no significant elevation change.  Obviously, if you have a pretty constant, gradual slope surrounding the cup, you can assume that this is a fair cup.  Another thing to look for is its distance from the edge of the green.  Most times, the length of the flagstick can be used, give or take a foot or two, as a good guide.  

[Dennis_Harwood]

If you can get(and read) the USGA publication "How to Conduct a Competition" there is an extensive section on selecting hole locations and course set-up.

Although I will not cover all the extensive recommendations, the most important are:

(1) Be mindful of the design of the hole as the architect intended the hole to be played.  Shorter the approach shot, the closer to green side obstacles(bunkers, water hazards, severe rough, etc) the hole may be placed.

(2) At least 5 paces should exist from the hole location to the edge of the green--

(3) The hole location should have a uniform grade at least 2-3 feet around the hole, and of course a ball should be able to come to rest in such area

(4) Recoverablity to the hole from a shot that just missed the putting green should be a factor( a ball just beyond a rear hole location should not be impossible because of a severe downhill with little green to work with)

(5) A ball stopped above the hole should not be impossible to stop on a down hill putt(very difficult yes, impossible no)--Green speeds have a lot to do with proper hole locations--

(6) Weather conditions during the day should be taken into account--Although in the morning putting greens may hold better, hole locations should not be set that make it impossible to get a ball anywhere close if the greens dry out--

(7) Hole locations should not favor one type of game--Front, back, middle, right and left should all be utilized(to not unduly favor a hook--or a slice).

Finally-- A PIN IS SOMETHING A TAILOR USES-- The proper terms are hole locations or perhaps flagstick locations--

[JohnV]

Dennis' answer is very good.  One other thing I think that has to be factored in is the skill level of the players.  If you are setting up for a daily fee golf course with all types of players, you can destroy the pace of play by having hole locations that are too difficult.  But, if you were setting up for a PGA Tour event you would naturally get much more difficult.

I do find it humerous that the USGA says you should have 5 paces to the edge of the green since I'd bet that less than 20% (and possibly less that 5%) of the holes at Bethpage this year were 5 paces or more from the edge of the green.

I once got a hole location sheet for the first round of the Nike Tour's old Philadelphia open and 17 of the 18 hole locations were 4 paces from the edge.

[MainelyJack]

I've got to print out Dave's post and give it to our GCS. About a month ago their was a near revolt at my club when someone set every flag location in a wierd and very unfair location. Since then we only get three or four wierd flag locations a day. I am told that some of the top players at the club who are in a position to influence locations enjoy the challange. Some of us would enjoy slashing their tires.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Another interesting recommendation--  In multiday events the hole locatiions are to be "rated" as to difficulty and the most difficult(and the easiest) spread equally over all days of the event--

The recommendation conflicts with the "myth" that in a 72 hole event the most difficult locations are saved for the last day--

The USGA does a very good job of this in their set up for championship events(Ie US OPEN), and the last day will have a mixture of hard/easy over each day--

PGA Tour events usually do a mixture also, but the finishing holes will often have very challenging locations and therefore the preception(what you see on TV) is that the most difficult locations are for the last day--

Perhaps the Masters, which has "traditional" final day hole locations, most of which are the most challenging on each of the greens, has fostered the myth that the last day should have all the difficult locations--

[JohnV]

In setting up a course for a match play event you can be a little more aggressive than in stroke play.

Even Augusta doesn't go all out on Sunday.  For example, the traditional back hole location at 15 is definitely not the hardest.  But they do seem to go further than most others on Sunday.  Is this another one of the curses that the Masters has put on American golf?

When a member of the grounds crew was leaving a course I used to belong to, they always let him set the holes his last day.  We could always tell when someone left as we saw hole locations that were incredible to say the least.

I think that Monday hole locations are usually tougher than Sunday ones.  At least at most clubs I know, if they change them on Monday, they use it to rotate to areas that don't normally get much wear.

[jg7236]

1)  Flagstick width completely around the hole. ( To be exact, 15 feet radius around the hole)

2)  The cup should not be placed on a slope. ( No greater than a 3% percent slope)

3)  On any given green there should be at least 14 pinable  positions.  ( The reason for this is so the injured turf around the cup has time to heal, and it takes about two weeks to heal.)

Overall it is depends on the type of course one is at(private, resort, championship, public, city, etc.), course design(if the course was designed properly, these guidlines will work.  If not that means the green complex is a out of control undulating blob), type of players, during the week or on the weekend, tournament(scramble, club championship, high school, professional, etc.)  

[Dan_Lucas]

The distance from the edge of the green is relative to the size of the green. If the green is 3500 sq.ft. or less, 3 paces can be acceptable. If the green is 7,000 sq.ft. 3 paces looks like it's on the collar. 5 paces is always safe. My personal guidelines on slopes are to keep it at least 2 paces from any major grade changes and on consistant slopes you should be able to putt uphill to the hole and stop the ball there. If you are above the hole, you should be able to keep it on the green . There are some places on golf courses you should have to pay a price for hitting to and not all of them are in hazards.

I use the hard, med., easy rating system when cutting cups and try not to use more than 2 hards per nine, only one of those will be the toughest pin on that green.

At the same time green size and traffic wear can force a super to use "questionable" pins in order to give his normal cupping positions a break. If you guys want "firm and fast" we have to use less water and Nitrogen. Both of these factors slow the recovery of old cupping positions making us use different spots on the green until recovery is complete. I don't like to have an old plug within 5 feet of a current cup.

The bottom line is that everybody has to play to the same cup, so quit your whining, look at it as a challenge and play!

[Buck Wolter]

Ken-
Played your course Tuesday -- assuming it's Old Hickory.

Very tough course -- #3 was as hard a par 5 as I've ever played. Not sure most GCA types would like it but it was a fun course to play. The quote of the day was ' You'd either be a good golfer if you played here or a fisherman'. One pin placement did seem over the top, I think it was the par 3 4th. The hole was cut within a collection area -- a fairly tame one but 3 of the 4 in our group ended within 3 feet of each other on the fringe there about 8 feet below the hole.

Buck W

[Pete_Pittock]

The adage of six easy, six medium, six hard for setting up a course for the day might contribute to the lower scoring we are seeing in tournaments. If you are going to defend scoring,
why not go to something like three easy, six medim, nine hard.

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