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Michael J. Moss

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In George Bahto's "The Evangelist of Golf, there is an excerpt from (I believe) "Golf Illustrated," which described the Biarritz hole's strategy, and it has prompted me to ask a few questions on the hole's design.

First, I loved how it described the need to employ the “push shot” – a low ball that would bound up through the swale onto the green. It also described the landing area (the area before the swale that many of the courses are now maintaining as putting surface) as a hog’s back that would repel an off-line shot into the flanking bunkers. Do we agree with this hog's back description? Did Macdonald, et al, build Biarritz greens of varrying sizes? Did the size of the Biarritz green and the severity of the hog’s back landing area vary according to its length?

What is a “modified” Biarritz and were they ever built by Macdoanld, Raynor or Banks? George and Gil Hanse have very recently renovated a downhill 190 – 195-yard Biarritz at Sleepy Hollow. This has to be the shortest of all the versions I’ve heard of. This hole was part of the original routing but is now part of their “Short Course.” In addition, the area before the swale is mowed to fairway height. Because of its length, is this a modified Biarritz?  

Last question: Is a Biarritz always played straight on, or can the landing area have a slight side-kick bias?

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2006, 03:33:58 PM »
Michael,

When I played The Knoll with Mike Sweeney and Neil Regan I was describing how we used to land short of the swale and let the ball run up to the green.

Our purpose was grounded in the fact that we could be more accurate with a three wood than a driver, and that being short wasn't so bad as compared with being left, right or long of the green.

I think you have to see every Biarritz that CBM, SR and CB built before making a general statement with respect to their design and playing characteristics.

The elevation differential between tee and green has a lot to do with the play of the hole.

TEPaul

Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2006, 05:51:22 PM »
A hog's back on the fairway run-up before the swale? I've seen a number of Biarritzes including the one at the course I grew up on, Piping Rock, and I don't remember any hog's backs on the fairway run-up. Those holes are hard enough. That sounds like over-kill to me. Maybe what was described as a hog's back was just a slight tilt either way off the center for drainage purposes.

Joe Hancock

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 06:46:18 PM »
Mike,

It must be a great question, because you summoned the insight of the two heavy hitters in the firt two replies.

Are you thinking of anywhere in particular? Sad thing about the loss of those white pines.... :'( ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Michael J. Moss

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2006, 08:35:19 PM »
Back home now and the “Evangelist” is open to page 150: (Hope you don't mind, George!)

The "American Golfer" magazine had this to say about Piping Rock’s 9th just after the course was completed in 1912:

There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog’s back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog’s back and the green. Under normal conditions the hole has to be played with what is now known as the push-shot, a low ball with plenty of run which will land short of the dip and run through it onto the green. But the push-shot must be very straight, otherwise it will land on one side or the other of the hog’s back and break off into a bunker. This is the ninth hole at Piping Rock.


Clearly the front section described above as a hog’s back was not maintained as putting area. It seems like a pretty cool way to play the hole, though you would need firm turf to allow the ball to bounce and roll up. Does the writer have the essence of the strategy back then, as he was writing soon after the course was opened for play? The strategy today is probably hit and stick, that's why the area in front of the swale is now putting area.

At Piping Rock, how long is the green beyond the swale? Are there minimums depending on length of the hole? I ask with limited experience playing this hole. I played Yale a few weeks ago and hit a 4-iron to the front section. (I was disappointed the pin was not in the rear.) P.S. I thought the hole was awesome! I just can't believe they're not building holes like that anymore.

Or are they? ;)

RSLivingston_III

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2006, 09:06:09 PM »
In George Bahto's "The Evangelist of Golf, there is an excerpt from (I believe) "Golf Illustrated," which described the Biarritz hole's strategy, and it has prompted me to ask a few questions on the hole's design.

First, I loved how it described the need to employ the “push shot” – a low ball that would bound up through the swale onto the green. ......
It makes sense the better players would employ the Push Shot for a Barritz. It is a shot only a scratch level player could accomplish. It was primarily described for holding a landing on a down wind shot, but with the backspin it imparted it was used all the time by certain players. Long-to-Mid Irons were the main choice. I believe it was Braid that could do it with a Driver.
If you have a good library, read Vardon, he was the first to describe it. Seymour Dunn has an even better description in his book.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 09:07:45 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2006, 09:33:00 PM »
Michael, thanks for the page reference. It is curious the aricle describes the Push Shot as a running shot. Vardon and Dunn both describe it as a shot with increased Underspin. Dunn's decription;
In the push-shot stroke, PUSH means to srtrike the ball in such a manner as to depress the ball's trajectory making it fly low yet with a lot of under spin on the ball so that it will drop dead when it lands."
I don't have the Vardon book handy but I recall he described it about the same but adding that the ball rose slightly just before dropping.
I understand there was some confusion about this shot back then and it is interesting to see an example of the misunderstanding in print.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 09:34:11 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Bill_McBride

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2006, 09:34:06 PM »
No hog back in front of the Biarritz 3rd at Chicago Golf Club.

Definitely no hog back in front of the Biarritz 11th at the Creek!  ;D

No hog back in front of the Biarritz 9th at Yale.

Looks like it might be unique to Piping Rock's topography.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 09:34:20 PM by Bill_McBride »

George_Bahto

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 10:26:57 PM »
Mike: the Hog’s Back that was referred to can be either one of two things:


1. It can be a reference to the area before the swale - (I don’t think so) or

2. it can be reference to two angled mounds on the “front” section preceding the swale.


At The Knoll we have these two “deflection mounds” - meant to deflect the running approach into the flanking bunkers if the play was a bit off line.

I have a green blueprint that clearly shows these deflection mounds (or hog-backs).

Frankly, I not have seen these mounds on other Biarritz holes.   Why??????

...... who knows but I wold think they were taken out for one reason or another - mostly probably because clubs did not understand why there were there or perhaps too many balls were, in fact, deflected to the side, strip bunkering.

The Biarritz green blueprint also shows a suggestion (or reflection) of these mounds up on the green itself - here again on the Knoll’s 13th those features are in the green, off to the right and left front of the green.  We also have a very distinct horseshoe feature on the Biarritz green. Most of these horseshoes are long gone on other courses.
               

Going back the words “Hog’s Back” on the front section:

Consider this:

None - NONE - of the Biarritz green complexes I’ve seen (and perhaps I’ve missed only about 5) have a concave landing area ..... so they could not have been referring to the entire frontal area as hog’s-back - they must have been referring to these two unique features.

I’ve seen slight traces of these mounds, like I have seen traces of the horseshoe feature on Biarritz greens. None however of the textbook variety that are on Knoll-13.

Certainly, from the descriptions I quoted, Piping Rock originally HAD these features.

Hope this helps, Mike.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 11:22:01 PM »
Michael,

I think the reference to a "hogback"  feature is a misrepresentation of the front part of the complex.

It might appear to be a hogback to some because it begins at fairway level, elevates to become the feature prior to the swale.

Again, I think it's a mischaracterization of the fronting feature.

I'm familiar with the mounds that Geoge describes, but, don't feel that they resemble what we would agree is the description of a hogsback.

George_Bahto

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2006, 11:31:42 PM »
Michael - as usual you asking a lot of questions - hah


M Moss: “Did Macdonald, et al, build Biarritz greens of varying sizes?

* Most all the greens were about the same size - I’m talking about the “rear-section” - real green


M Moss: “Did the size of the Biarritz green and the severity of the hog’s back landing area vary according to its length?”

* Has no bearing

* Most of the original greens had no multiple tee - only one tee


M Moss: “What is a “modified” Biarritz and were they ever built by Macdonald, Raynor or Banks?”

* I have no idea what a Modified Biarritz is in the context of Macdonald - Raynor - Banks

M Moss: “George and Gil Hanse have very recently renovated a downhill 190 – 195-yard Biarritz at Sleepy Hollow. This has to be the shortest of all the versions I’ve heard of. This hole was part of the original routing but is now part of their “Short Course.” In addition, the area before the swale is mowed to fairway height. Because of its length, is this a modified Biarritz?”

* I think the reason it is so short is because of the Mr. Rockefeller’s “interference” in the original design because it really is a strange Biarritz .......   So, Mike, I’ll not call it a modified Biarritz but a "strange" (hardly a) Biarritz. Hopefully we’ll be able to re-address that hole - the front section of it -  when we’re finished with the rest of the course.

M Moss: “Last question: Is a Biarritz always played straight on, or can the landing area have a slight side-kick bias?”

* The15th at Essex County CC in NJ we have a green that is slightly cocked right to left - an interesting concept.

* There are a few Biarritz greens that are different in that they are single-green complexes - barely or no swale and no distinct forward landing area - Blind Brook comes to mind.  They even look sort of like and Eden hole.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Michael J. Moss

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2006, 09:28:33 AM »
George,

Thanks for your help. You are Macdonald's channeler to this physical world. Actually, you showed those deflection mounds to me at the Knoll. Good luck with the project in Southern Oregon! What fun it should be.

Pat, thanks as well.

RSLivingston_III

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2006, 11:17:57 AM »
I don't think the golf writer knew very much about the higher end of golf. The game was still fairly new in this country, American Golfer was really only 3-4 years old at this time, the writer probably had some mis-understandings about the terminology of the game. To mis-understand the meaning of a Push-shot and a Hog's back is really not unusual. I have run across much worse descriptions than this before in other articles and it is just one of those things you need to read between the lines on.
It does sounds like he is describing that front pad as the "hog's back".
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 11:19:00 AM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

George_Bahto

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2006, 12:19:18 PM »
Ralph, I agree but there are no hog-back approach areas.

But here’s a Macdonald quote from Scotland’s Gif for holes on his ideal course:

“......following are eighteen holes which occur to me as being right. Of course, the reader must assume that the run of the ground and the hazards are correct.”

“hole 15  -  210-yards”        Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making a sharp hog back in the middle of course. Stop 30 yards from the hole bunkered right of the green and good low ground to the left of plateau green.”

“These distances are measured from the middle of the teeing ground to the middle of the putting green. With proper teeing space and putting green each hole could be lengthened at will from 20 to 30 yards.

CBM - 1927
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

RSLivingston_III

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Re:The Biarritz, the "Modified" Biarritz, "hog's back" landing area.
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2006, 05:12:00 PM »
George,
I think the writer just didn't understand what a hog's back is.
If the "green" is just the mown pad behind the valley/swale, then I think he is calling the front pad a hog's back. He probably didn't know that a hog's back is a ridge. I would bet he just misunderstood a description that was given to him.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

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