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Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2006, 10:12:49 AM »
Pete,

That's invalid and an obstructionist view.

If it's so difficult how do architects manage to insert greenside bunkers that are 3 feet and deeper ?

Three (3) feet is hardly deep, especially if the green is slightly elevated.

That feature is easy to create.

The question remains, if it's such a great feature, why haven't we seen more of it ?

ForkaB

Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #126 on: November 13, 2006, 10:17:09 AM »
Pat

1. The 18th green already borders the OB right. If they moved it further right they'd have to find a pin positions in one of the shops in town.

2. The VofS will never be moved right even if only because that would spoil the view of the green at the Opens for the members of the R&A.

3.  The VofS is not at all over-rated, because the course plays fast and firm, and trying to stop a half-wedge to a pin position a few yards from the edge of that "depression" requires significant skill and nerve.

If CBM had the proper vision, nerves and soil condidtions, he might have tried to replicate the hole and the feature at NGLA, but he didn't.  I ocasionally wonder in which if not all of these he was found lacking?

Rich

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #127 on: November 13, 2006, 10:27:51 AM »
Pete,

Three (3) feet is hardly deep, especially if the green is slightly elevated.

That feature is easy to create.

The secret to the Valley of Sin is to have it firm and dry enough to putt through it; elsewise it becomes a unidemensional hazard. Although many bunker are 3 feet deep, I don't know many that I would be able to putt through should they be emptied of sand.[/color]

The question remains, if it's such a great feature, why haven't we seen more of it ?

Not many people have copied the fall away greens at TOC either; does that make it a bad design feature? Even Ran himself included the lack of replicating the fallaway greens at TOC as one of the 10 great mistakes of modern GCA.[/color]
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 10:28:49 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #128 on: November 13, 2006, 11:31:26 AM »
Pete,

Three (3) feet is hardly deep, especially if the green is slightly elevated.

That feature is easy to create.

The secret to the Valley of Sin is to have it firm and dry enough to putt through it; elsewise it becomes a unidemensional hazard. Although many bunker are 3 feet deep, I don't know many that I would be able to putt through should they be emptied of sand.[/color]

First you couch your argument in the context of drainage.

Once that argument was quickly defeated, you try to switch your argument to putting through sand.

With the elimination of drainage as a problem, why hasn't the feature been replicated ? Especially, if it's so spectacular ?

The question remains, if it's such a great feature, why haven't we seen more of it ?
[/color]

Not many people have copied the fall away greens at TOC either; does that make it a bad design feature?[/color]

That's not the question.

Remember, we're told this is a famous hole, the 18th at TOC, the finishing hole, which is unique and distinquishes itself from all the others by virtue of its place in the order of play.
[/color]

Even Ran himself included the lack of replicating the fallaway greens at TOC as one of the 10 great mistakes of modern GCA.
[/color]

Ran, who is Ran ?  What does he know ?
His saving grace and claim to fame was a pebble on the 17th green at Sand Hills.

The issue isn't fallaway greens, it's the VOS.

If it's such a great feature why isn't it more resplendent in golf ?
[/color]
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 11:32:48 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #129 on: November 13, 2006, 03:31:17 PM »

If it's such a great feature why isn't it more resplendent in golf ?[/b]


Patrick,

Are you talking template holes, constructed to exact proportions or replicas, inspired by VOS ?

I have played & seen quite a few holes that may have been inspired by the VOS, whether the various replicas have been man-made or constructed. RMW #3 is a good example of a hole with a small VOS in front of it. The 17th at Royal Adelaide (slightly off-set) & the 18th at Newcastle are also reasonable examples of valleys that have been inspired by the VOS.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #130 on: November 13, 2006, 04:41:11 PM »
Andrew,

I haven't seen any propensity on the part of any architects or the desire on the part of any developers to craft a similar feature on any courses in the U.S.

Small depressions hardly qualify.

The VOS is well know, as is its configuration.
It wouldn't be difficult to replicate if anyone was so inclined.
It would appear that noone is interested in duplicating the feature, which might speak to its significance and function as an architectural feature.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The 18th on the Old Course - a show of hands, please...
« Reply #131 on: November 13, 2006, 06:55:02 PM »
1

I think most of what I would say has been said.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

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